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Existing laser tech could be used for “porch light” to attract alien astronomers

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Re: Existing laser tech could be used for “porch light” to attract alien astronomers

#41

Post by paulsutter »

andrewljohnson wrote: post #3

I prefer a Dark Forest strategy for approaching the universe. If anything, we should be thinking about how to emit less radiation that can be traced back to Earth into space. Best case: aliens send us technology via morse code. Worst case: relativistic projectile from advanced civilization destroys Earth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Forest

Quoting the link

> Like hunters in a "dark forest" ... where any two civilizations cannot communicate well enough to relieve mistrust, making conflict inevitable. Therefore, it is in every civilization's best interest to preemptively strike and destroy any developing civilization before it can become a threat, but without revealing their own location, thus explaining the Fermi paradox.

Re: Existing laser tech could be used for “porch light” to attract alien astronomers

#42

Post by richardbdrowley »

angry_octet wrote: post #40
ridgeguy wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll knowingly violate HN's rules to say that's a Vogon conclusion.

Is there a rule against humour? Or puns? I thought it was just a sect of users who are also Wikipedia editors.

There is a rule against anything that doesn't make Sam Altman richer or more acutely aware of the startup landscape.

Re: Existing laser tech could be used for “porch light” to attract alien astronomers

#43

Post by mrob »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #17
devoply wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would venture a guess that all so-called intelligent life seeks make use of anything that it can get its hands on and order it according to its will. If this is true, then you really don't ever want to meet other intelligent life. At best they would integrate you into their economic system, just like we integrate people with lower intelligence into our economic system... or underdeveloped countries for that matter.…

That’s a closed minded view of intelligence. There’s a level above exploitation where you value other intelligent life and cherish it.

It's well established that fish feel pain[0]. It's also possible to kill them far more humanely that we do now, e.g. by electroshock or by eugenol anesthesia. Despite this, out of the 1+ trillion fish killed by humans every year, almost all of them die slowly and painfully. We choose to do this simply because it's more convenient. Why would aliens treat humans any differently?

Intentionally signaling to aliens is one of the stupidest ideas I can think of. The Killing Star by Charles Pellegrino and George Zebrowski has a good analogy (longer quote here: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/aliencontact.ph... ), describing a thought experiment of surviving the night in a crime-ridden Central Park:

"How do you survive the night? The last thing you want to do is shout, "I'm here!" The next to last thing you want to do is reply to someone who shouts, "I'm a friend!"

What you would like to do is find a policeman, or get out of the park. But you don't want to make noise or move towards a light where you might be spotted, and it is difficult to find either a policeman or your way out without making yourself known. Your safest option is to hunker down and wait for daylight, then safely walk out.

There are, of course, a few obvious differences between Central Park and the universe.

There is no policeman.

There is no way out.

And the night never ends."

[0] https://www.hakaimagazine.com/features/fish-feel-pain-now-wh...

Re: Existing laser tech could be used for “porch light” to attract alien astronomers

#44

Post by beerlord »

village-idiot wrote: post #23

Are they fucking crazy? Turn out that light! Our first encounter with space faring aliens will probably go about as well as native Americans first encounter with Europeans.

The value that Earth provides is the fact that it hosts millions of living species.

Mere geological resources can be gathered from asteroids or other planets with lesser gravity wells.

The Alien species would have to determine if Human technology, economy and culture holds any value to them. If it does, they will conduct a cost-benefit analysis of the various billions of humans inhabiting the planet, and eliminate the least-productive in order to improve average genetic quality and bring the overall species back to within the carrying capacity of the planet.

For example, 56% of the Earth's population from the least-productive countries could be eliminated, for only a 6% decrease in scientific output, and 17% decrease in GDP. Doing so would also result in a 23% decrease in carbon emissions.

Of course, if they find that humanity holds negative value, they will simply eliminate all humans, and turn the planet into a giant nature park.

Re: Existing laser tech could be used for “porch light” to attract alien astronomers

#45

Post by rdtsc »

joezydeco wrote: post #7
eloff wrote: post #4

This seems to me like shining a laser pointer randomly up into the sky and hoping someone from a passing plane sees it? Is this practical given the vastness of space and the directionaality of this laser?

Well not just a plane passing overhead, a plane passing overhead 200 years from now. Maybe we should be aiming the big laser at Oumuamua. With a big HEY COME BACK HERE message.

I've wondered if that was the purpose of the "probe". To see if anyone follows it, or otherwise interacts with it. Let's say you know there is a habitable planet, but you don't want to land there first, instead send a probe and see if the planet reacts to it. If they do, it would indicate a rather advanced civilization.

Re: Existing laser tech could be used for “porch light” to attract alien astronomers

#46

Post by njarboe »

devoply wrote: post #8
Johnny555 wrote: post #5

especially if those astronomers live in nearby systems, such as around Proxima Centauri, the nearest star to Earth, or TRAPPIST-1, a star about 40 light-years away that hosts seven exoplanets, three of which are potentially habitable. If the signal is spotted from either of these nearby systems, the study finds, the same megawatt laser could be used to send a brief message in the form of pulses similar to Morse code.…

I would venture a guess that all so-called intelligent life seeks make use of anything that it can get its hands on and order it according to its will. If this is true, then you really don't ever want to meet other intelligent life. At best they would integrate you into their economic system, just like we integrate people with lower intelligence into our economic system... or underdeveloped countries for that matter.…

I like the idea that when an old and powerful Galaxy ranging alien race discovers a planet that has life, they place that solar system off limits to any settlement and only observations are allowed. It does not seem that unlikely, unless life is just not rare at all. If 1 in 1000 or 1 in 100 or even 1 in 10 systems were set aside in this way, that would leave plenty of solar systems to continue to expand into.

In the US, we got rich and powerful enough around the 1880's that nature was basically conquered and we wanted to start preserving places for their natural beauty. By the 1970's we had set aside huge amounts of land for National Parks, State Parks and wilderness areas. Wilderness areas alone in the lower 48 is about 64.4 million acres, or about the same as cities and towns (urban areas are 69.4 million acres)[1].

[1]https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/

Re: Existing laser tech could be used for “porch light” to attract alien astronomers

#47

Post by sebazzz »

paulsutter wrote: post #41
andrewljohnson wrote: post #3

I prefer a Dark Forest strategy for approaching the universe. If anything, we should be thinking about how to emit less radiation that can be traced back to Earth into space. Best case: aliens send us technology via morse code. Worst case: relativistic projectile from advanced civilization destroys Earth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Forest

Quoting the link > Like hunters in a "dark forest" ... where any two civilizations cannot communicate well enough to relieve mistrust, making conflict inevitable. Therefore, it is in every civilization's best interest to preemptively strike and destroy any developing civilization before it can become a threat, but without revealing their own location, thus explaining the Fermi paradox.

I think the explanation of the Fermi paradox is the fact that without a natural predator and add technically superior intelligence we populate the entire planet, while also having little care for the environment causing global warming which is then a problem handled too little too late (or even denied) by our politicians around the globe. This can eventually cause conflict, especially when food prices become too high. Besides that we are also are still fighting like toddlers (USA, Russia, China, Middle East) though it is hard to tell how serious those conflicts are.

I think we are before the gap, that might also be because I'm pessimistic about the current state of the world.

That said, if I'm wrong I would rather have any aliens find us. If you're advanced, you probably resolved various issues regarding limited resources, so why would you kill us as being primitive species?

Re: Existing laser tech could be used for “porch light” to attract alien astronomers

#48

Post by jobigoud »

mrob wrote: post #43
JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a closed minded view of intelligence. There’s a level above exploitation where you value other intelligent life and cherish it.

It's well established that fish feel pain[0]. It's also possible to kill them far more humanely that we do now, e.g. by electroshock or by eugenol anesthesia. Despite this, out of the 1+ trillion fish killed by humans every year, almost all of them die slowly and painfully. We choose to do this simply because it's more convenient. Why would aliens treat humans any differently? Intentionally signaling to aliens is one…

There might be a policeman but you don't know how to recognize one.

Re: Existing laser tech could be used for “porch light” to attract alien astronomers

#49

Post by internet555 »

paulsutter wrote: post #41
andrewljohnson wrote: post #3

I prefer a Dark Forest strategy for approaching the universe. If anything, we should be thinking about how to emit less radiation that can be traced back to Earth into space. Best case: aliens send us technology via morse code. Worst case: relativistic projectile from advanced civilization destroys Earth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Forest

Quoting the link > Like hunters in a "dark forest" ... where any two civilizations cannot communicate well enough to relieve mistrust, making conflict inevitable. Therefore, it is in every civilization's best interest to preemptively strike and destroy any developing civilization before it can become a threat, but without revealing their own location, thus explaining the Fermi paradox.

What was the Greek story (Plutarch? Idk) where some guy being hunted by some army captain crashes on some island and the local pseudo intellectual sophist says they need to kill him before the army captain comes or else they’ll be punished for either aiding him or letting him go. Then the army captain finds out they killed his target for no reason so he kills all of them for being corrupt idiots

Re: Existing laser tech could be used for “porch light” to attract alien astronomers

#50

Post by merpnderp »

gisely wrote: post #33
ALittleLight wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For being such a cynic about humanity you're awfully optimistic about aliens.

I think there might be some reasons to be optimistic. Any civilization that might notice our signal and decide to interact with us has with us has existed much longer than our own civilization with high probability. Thus, there is more evidence of long-term stability in such a civilization than our own. With stability comes the potential for experience, with experience the potential for wisdom.

Why would you believe they’d have our extremely temporary set or morals? Human empires have lasted for thousands of years and the one thing that binds 99% of human history is soul crushing enslavement of each other.
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