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Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

bbc.com

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Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#21

Post by EGreg »

kaybe wrote: post #18
delibes wrote: post #3

But the BBC reported earlier this year that somebody is cheating and making CFC-11 - banned by the Montreal Protocol. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44138984

It's home insulation production in China. The culprits are fully aware it's illegal, but China has some problems in getting compliance to its own laws. https://content.eia-global.org/posts/documents/000/000/761/o...

You would think China with all that control over businesses and their population could prevent people from polluting their rivers with plastic and spewing it into the Pacific Ocean!

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#22

Post by InclinedPlane »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #14
InclinedPlane wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are these incompatible stories? Worldwide ozone destroying chemical production is way down, which is allowing the ozone layer to regenerate back to pre-industrial levels. Meanwhile, some polluters are cranking out banned CFCs and freeriding on the worldwide reduction efforts. Much like CO2 production, some level of emissions are well within the ability of the biosphere to deal with without harm. But if everyone e…

How much CFC production was accounted for in the models that predicted the O3 layer healing? How much production can be handled and what is current production? Those are the answers one would have to have before writing this off.

Before writing what off?

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#23

Post by tomerico »

EGreg wrote: post #19
pseudolus wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the significant differences is that in the 1980s when the issue of ozone depletion was being confronted, politics was not as polarized. One of the great successes of those arguing for action was recruiting Conservative British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, a trained chemist, as an advocate https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/energy/2016/10/will-ma...

There is another major difference: Fossil fuels contribute a lot of energy to the needs of people and organizations. Solar and wind will take time to take over the infrastructure. CFCs on the other hand could be much more easily replaced.

That's the key part. What CPC case teaches us, is that if we could find a good alternative to Fossil fuels, we could likely eliminate their use.

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#24

Post by xavierstein »

My father-in-law firmly believes that the hole in the ozone was caused by space shuttle reentry, and that's why it's patching now, and also that CFCs couldn't possibly make the hole because they are heavier than air. Does anyone have the data to refute these claims?

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#25

Post by hyperpallium »

pseudolus wrote: post #17
A2017U1 wrote: post #15

If only we could get such swift global action on greenhouse emissions. Both problems are essentially the same yet the difference in action couldn't be wider.

One of the significant differences is that in the 1980s when the issue of ozone depletion was being confronted, politics was not as polarized. One of the great successes of those arguing for action was recruiting Conservative British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, a trained chemist, as an advocate https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/energy/2016/10/will-ma...

Dr. Margaret Thatcher

EDIT I must apologise to my parent, and to HN in general. Her thesis was undergraduate:

> ... four-year Chemistry Bachelor of Science degree, specialising in X-ray crystallography under the supervision of Dorothy Hodgkin. Her dissertation was on the structure of the antibiotic gramicidin. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#26

Post by pm »

xavierstein wrote: post #24

My father-in-law firmly believes that the hole in the ozone was caused by space shuttle reentry, and that's why it's patching now, and also that CFCs couldn't possibly make the hole because they are heavier than air. Does anyone have the data to refute these claims?

Does he have data to back up those claims?

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#27

Post by jniedrauer »

xavierstein wrote: post #24

My father-in-law firmly believes that the hole in the ozone was caused by space shuttle reentry, and that's why it's patching now, and also that CFCs couldn't possibly make the hole because they are heavier than air. Does anyone have the data to refute these claims?

> Does anyone have the data to refute these claims?

I firmly believe that gravity is caused by a bunch of invisible garden gnomes that hold you down. Does anyone have the data to refute these claims?

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#28

Post by seiferteric »

xavierstein wrote: post #24

My father-in-law firmly believes that the hole in the ozone was caused by space shuttle reentry, and that's why it's patching now, and also that CFCs couldn't possibly make the hole because they are heavier than air. Does anyone have the data to refute these claims?

Does he think the space shuttle was/is the only craft reentering the atmosphere?

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#29

Post by Retric »

EGreg wrote: post #21
kaybe wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's home insulation production in China. The culprits are fully aware it's illegal, but China has some problems in getting compliance to its own laws. https://content.eia-global.org/posts/documents/000/000/761/o...

You would think China with all that control over businesses and their population could prevent people from polluting their rivers with plastic and spewing it into the Pacific Ocean!

Systemic corruption makes the rule of law "difficult" to enforce. And by difficult I mean this is a feature not a bug for the huge interconnected web of power that actually runs the country.

PS: The fact China is not a democracy which has some unpleasant results: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

Re: Ozone: The Earth's protective shield is repairing

#30

Post by xavierstein »

pm wrote: post #26
xavierstein wrote: post #24

My father-in-law firmly believes that the hole in the ozone was caused by space shuttle reentry, and that's why it's patching now, and also that CFCs couldn't possibly make the hole because they are heavier than air. Does anyone have the data to refute these claims?

Does he have data to back up those claims?

I guess I'm more looking for a response to "yes CFCs can destroy ozone even though they are heavier than air," and "here is a graph of the size of the ozone vs space shuttle reentries" that shows a non-correlation.
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