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CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

money.cnn.com

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Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#81

Post by cryptoz »

kenjackson wrote: post #66
cryptoz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people continue to pay for Windows even though Linux is free 99% of that is only because Windows is available in stores and Linux typically is not. I think this will all change in about a month when Chrome OS comes out and is preinstalled on cheap computers in stores like Best Buy, Futureshop, or wherever people buy computers these days. Most consumers no longer care that they are running a specific OS; they want t…

Consumers nevered cared about a specific OS. They've always just wanted a set of applications. The problem is that Chrome only answers one class of apps that people must have... web browser. But it lacks Office (Open Office and Google Docs are not replacements for most people). Lacks a decent gaming ecosystem -- does it even have the Sims? And is missing a lot of applications that users use along the long tail... suc…

> But it lacks Office

Chrome OS will open Office files using Office Live, online. That seems like an excellent solution to me, and given that the service is provided by Microsoft I assume it works well with Microsoft documents.

> Lacks a decent gaming ecosystem -- does it even have the Sims? And is missing a lot of applications that users use along the long tail... such as CS5 and iTunes.

That is not the target market for Chrome OS. Google has said many times that Chrome OS should not be your primary operating system; if you buy a machine with Chrome OS you should use it as a portable, small machine to quickly access the web with. There's still a place for full-blown operating systems outside of Chrome OS.

The vast majority of users don't run CS5.

> Chrome is a non-player IMO.

Chrome hasn't hit the market yet. I think it's a big mistake to take something that Google is developing and say, "nah, won't work" before release.

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#82

Post by gaius »

cryptoz wrote: post #3

I firmly believe that most of Microsoft's failings in the consumer market come from their fear of the World Wide Web. Microsoft does everything they can to hide their users from the real power of the web, since everyone - including Microsoft - knows that a ubiquitous Web means fewer sales of Windows and Office. Their logic in locking users to Windows-based experiences is old, tired, and not going to work anymore. Peo…

you can't have a modern Web experience using only Microsoft products

How soon we forget! There would be no AJAX today had Microsoft not introduced XMLHttpRequest to make Outlook Web Access work...

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#83

Post by unexpected »

brentb wrote: post #52
lkrubner wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"since everyone - including Microsoft - knows that a ubiquitous Web means fewer sales of Windows and Office" I would think that the real problem is Microsoft's unwillingness to become something completely new, something other than Windows and Office. Apple was a computer company, then it became a cell phone company, a music company, a lot of other things. Microsoft now sort of reminds me of Sun circa 1999: yes, they…

"I would think that the real problem is Microsoft's unwillingness to become something completely new, something other than Windows and Office." Inability, perhaps. Unwillingness? You're out of your mind. Microsoft has had their fingers in smartphones, music players, search engines, touch computing, web mail, [you name it] for YEARS. And they are not just dabbling... they have poured billions into these areas, trying…

I agree with you, but I fear that the internal politics with Microsoft have been absolutely stifling!

Let's take smartphones for instance - look at the Kin. From all reports, killed b/c of politics, in favor of Windows 7. Why not have both and see what the market decides?

The Courier. Killed - who knows why? Most likely politics.

Microsoft has so many innovative ideas that we see in Research - but we never see them in products! It always feels like the right hand is slapping the left hand. Competing fiefdoms are fighting over resources, over pub, and over power.

Microsoft needs to empower it's best leaders to make a product, from start to completion - much like Jobs does with Apple. At the end of the day, the buck stops with Jobs, and his vision goes. What happens at Microsoft? You have 100 PM's working on one project. You work diligently. Your design is "design by committee" but hey, it looks like it's going well.

Then some jealous VP of some other division has a beer with Ballmer expressing some concerns and the project gets killed. This needs to stop. There was no reason that the Kin/Courier should have been killed. If it flops, let it flop. If you don't take chances, you'll never grow.

Microsoft right now is afraid of its own shadow.

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#84

Post by cryptoz »

blub wrote: post #43
cryptoz wrote: post #3

I firmly believe that most of Microsoft's failings in the consumer market come from their fear of the World Wide Web. Microsoft does everything they can to hide their users from the real power of the web, since everyone - including Microsoft - knows that a ubiquitous Web means fewer sales of Windows and Office. Their logic in locking users to Windows-based experiences is old, tired, and not going to work anymore. Peo…

What is so great about HTML5 and JS for me, the user? That you can get my location? That you can have video (just like Flash, except slower)? Or is it that you can store stuff on my machine? HTML5 is one more step in the direction of web pages pretending to be applications. Reading about "the web" on HN is like reading the story of Icarus. HN'ers are so enchanted by web apps that they forget they can only fly on the…

> That you can have video (just like Flash, except slower)?

Actually HTML5 is faster, and Flash is slower [for me]. So video on the web is a big deal with HTML5.

> HTML5 is one more step in the direction of web pages pretending to be applications.

No, it is one more step in the direction of web pages becoming applications. You can't possibly tell me that Gmail isn't a full application! It's much faster and more responsive than any desktop mail client I've ever seen: searching mail takes web.

Why are you opposed to web applications?

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#85

Post by points »

gboyer wrote: post #65
points wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't find it absolutely bizarre that it doesn't even have a web browser? Even when a tiny DSi has a very capable browser, smart phones have browsers. And a big gaming console from a supposed software company doesn't even have a web browser?

I guess it's a little strange that they haven't tried to put IE on the Xbox--but I'm glad they haven't. The whole reason I have a game console is to have an appliance that is dedicated to video games. I have plenty of other devices that provide a superior browsing experience.

I agree with you - I wouldn't use a webbrowser on a games console. But the population disagrees - they do :/

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#86

Post by fragmede »

lkrubner wrote: post #30
cryptoz wrote: post #3

I firmly believe that most of Microsoft's failings in the consumer market come from their fear of the World Wide Web. Microsoft does everything they can to hide their users from the real power of the web, since everyone - including Microsoft - knows that a ubiquitous Web means fewer sales of Windows and Office. Their logic in locking users to Windows-based experiences is old, tired, and not going to work anymore. Peo…

"since everyone - including Microsoft - knows that a ubiquitous Web means fewer sales of Windows and Office" I would think that the real problem is Microsoft's unwillingness to become something completely new, something other than Windows and Office. Apple was a computer company, then it became a cell phone company, a music company, a lot of other things. Microsoft now sort of reminds me of Sun circa 1999: yes, they…

Ubiquitous web means fewer end-user sales of Windows and Office. End-users don't buy Windows, it just happens to come with their computer.

End-user sales of Office may well decline, but if there were a good online version, Microsoft could sell two versions. A cloud-based, subscription version for smaller businesses, hosted by Microsoft. The second version would be a for larger corporations that want to host their own.

For a large corporation, licensing could then be simplified to some fashion of a site-license; the cost of upgrading ALL computers would be simplified.

Note that I'm NOT suggesting that Microsoft give up on a fat client for office, just that there's room for Microsoft needs to pivot if they wanted to, but that's easier said than done.

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#87

Post by cryptoz »

gaius wrote: post #82
cryptoz wrote: post #3

I firmly believe that most of Microsoft's failings in the consumer market come from their fear of the World Wide Web. Microsoft does everything they can to hide their users from the real power of the web, since everyone - including Microsoft - knows that a ubiquitous Web means fewer sales of Windows and Office. Their logic in locking users to Windows-based experiences is old, tired, and not going to work anymore. Peo…

you can't have a modern Web experience using only Microsoft products How soon we forget! There would be no AJAX today had Microsoft not introduced XMLHttpRequest to make Outlook Web Access work...

Yeah, that was ~ 1 decade ago. I'm fully aware that you could have a modern web experience with Microsoft way back 10 years ago. But 10 years ago isn't today. Today is today, and Microsoft no longer provides a modern web experience.

AJAX isn't modern anymore. Don't you see that the AJAX innovation was a game changer, but that the game has moved on since then?

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#88

Post by kenjackson »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #23
cryptoz wrote: post #3

I firmly believe that most of Microsoft's failings in the consumer market come from their fear of the World Wide Web. Microsoft does everything they can to hide their users from the real power of the web, since everyone - including Microsoft - knows that a ubiquitous Web means fewer sales of Windows and Office. Their logic in locking users to Windows-based experiences is old, tired, and not going to work anymore. Peo…

This is an excellent point and to add to it I want to point out that Microsoft exacerbates this problem by not hiring the best web people to build their products. They believe that they can put a bunch of smart people in a room and they'll come up with stuff people want to use, and this has largely been self fulfilling because of the dominance of Microsoft in the computing space. Now that dominance is fading away, yo…

This I think is a delusional myth. I fully expect MS has some of the best web devs out there. But even if MS has 100 of the top 500 web devs, there are still 400 web devs thta don't work at MS. And there are a million+ web devs after that. While you might argue that more innovation per capita, comes from the top web devs, it's still likely that the next innovation will come from someone you've never heard of.

This is why most people in the tech field at the top of the game aren't afraid of their past-rivals, but more afraid of the guy in the garage they've never heard of. Odds are more likely that this is where the big innovation is going to come from.

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#89

Post by cryptoz »

Timmy_C wrote: post #45
Xuzz wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Internet is not the web. Native games with Internet multiplayer aren't the web, they are the Internet. I don't know a single person using the online Office versions, because, well, they don't compare to the desktop ones. Yesterday, I saw a graph showing Hotmail losing about 10% market share, mostly to Gmail. Their new Xbox website broke every existing link on the domain. Mocrosoft does not get the web, even if th…

The sites built for marketing Microsoft products are often outsourced. So the fact that the new Xbox website was broken in any regard is the fault of a poor marketing manager and not a poor Microsoft developer.

If a software company doesn't build its own software, then there are other, larger problems here.

(Yes, websites are software).

Re: CNN Money: Microsoft is a Dying Consumer Brand

#90

Post by kenjackson »

cryptoz wrote: post #81
kenjackson wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumers nevered cared about a specific OS. They've always just wanted a set of applications. The problem is that Chrome only answers one class of apps that people must have... web browser. But it lacks Office (Open Office and Google Docs are not replacements for most people). Lacks a decent gaming ecosystem -- does it even have the Sims? And is missing a lot of applications that users use along the long tail... suc…

> But it lacks Office Chrome OS will open Office files using Office Live, online. That seems like an excellent solution to me, and given that the service is provided by Microsoft I assume it works well with Microsoft documents. > Lacks a decent gaming ecosystem -- does it even have the Sims? And is missing a lot of applications that users use along the long tail... such as CS5 and iTunes. That is not the target marke…

Chrome hasn't hit the market, but plenty of us have used it extensively.

If Chrome's target market is the secondary web browsing machine then its competition is iPad, and eventually Windows tablets (running on Oak Trail). I think it may do decently, but it's not a real PC compete.

Regarding Office apps, opening in Office Live is fine if your competition is iPad. Although Office Live is missing a lot of features, at least today, to make it a real Office replacement.

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