Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress • Hacker News Board

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#311

Post by canhascodez » Tue, Nov 06, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #306

canhascodez wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what point you're making. When people believed in a flat Earth, or geocentrism, or miracles, those things did not contradict empirical knowledge of the world. Since then, we have established empiricism as the most useful tool for examining the real world, and expanded the scope of human knowledge considerably. I'm not sure what about that you might take issue with.

The idea that consensus entails convergence to the truth, when the best thinkers have consensus on antithetical ideas in different time periods.

You're ignoring the different amounts of information those people had about their environments. Do you happen to have issues with a particular scientific consensus, is that where we're going here?

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#312

Post by vanterdon » Tue, Nov 06, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

renox wrote: post #302

camelNotation wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religion does provide meaning and purpose, but that is hardly all it is "about." Religion also provides inclusion for those that would otherwise feel outcast. It provides social structure and identity. It provides a framework for you to build culture upon. It acts as a moral guide for behavior. It unifies communities around central goals. It uses myth to convey inter-generational wisdom. It teaches rituals that impro…

> Religion also provides inclusion for those that would otherwise feel outcast. Except for those who don't fit in the religion narrow view of what is acceptable.. > It provides a framework for you to build culture upon.[cut]It provides dozens of important things. Proof needed: there are many countries which have a high share of atheists/agnostics (northern European countries), these countries have their own culture a…

Northern European countries haven't always been highly irreligious, where do you think that culture came from?

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#313

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Nov 06, 2018, 6:43 PM UTC

abrahamepton wrote: post #274

ripsawridge wrote: post #222

The only thing our world needs now is a reorientation away from growth at all costs into a mode of life that values the simple, the close by, the cheap. I don't see this guy giving a damn about that problem. Instead he tosses off bon mots about Popper and Gödel, and intones comfortably that in his view his peers have the right idea because they converge on atheism/agnosticism. Wow. The world is saved. There is a clas…

Always glad when HN discovers the existence of a learned scholar, atop their field, who's spent decades studying a truly hard thing and an HNer decides that, in fact, the True Thing They Needed to Understand was there all along, and it is in fact the kind of thing that most reassures the sayer.

[deleted]

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#314

Post by ripsawridge » Tue, Nov 06, 2018, 6:49 PM UTC

edanm wrote: post #301

ripsawridge wrote: post #222

The only thing our world needs now is a reorientation away from growth at all costs into a mode of life that values the simple, the close by, the cheap. I don't see this guy giving a damn about that problem. Instead he tosses off bon mots about Popper and Gödel, and intones comfortably that in his view his peers have the right idea because they converge on atheism/agnosticism. Wow. The world is saved. There is a clas…

> The only thing our world needs now is a reorientation away from growth at all costs into a mode of life that values the simple, the close by, the cheap. What? Why? I mean, yeah, "at all costs" is a little extreme, but the alternative isn't to only value the simple, close by, and cheap. I kind of like the fact that humanity strives for better and better things - it's what took us from the age of 50% of children dyin…

I also like for humanity to strive for better and better things. But do you get that mostly, "better" has just meant that someone else pays the cost?

My point is that a real look into "better" will often (probably! Not necessarily!) lead a person to minimize his or her ill effects. Naturally, being decent, they'll try to maximize their good effects. I pointed to a tradition like zen to evoke minimalism, to evoke noticing the smallest details. There are certainly many ways to improve.

I guess I spoke in a strong way so that my words wouldn't be immediately lost. If it sounds like I'm devaluing too many just plain good aspects of humanity then I can say I didn't mean to say that.

Now...I do quibble with the set of facts you offer that indicate the now is the best. Yes, life is so good for so many. Though we are clearly not in balance. We are heating up the atmosphere and we don't have a solution. That is an actual problem, right? Yes, it's easy to ignore. Easy to hope that "something" comes along. But I don't call it responsible.

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#315

Post by ripsawridge » Tue, Nov 06, 2018, 6:52 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #300

ripsawridge wrote: post #222

The only thing our world needs now is a reorientation away from growth at all costs into a mode of life that values the simple, the close by, the cheap. I don't see this guy giving a damn about that problem. Instead he tosses off bon mots about Popper and Gödel, and intones comfortably that in his view his peers have the right idea because they converge on atheism/agnosticism. Wow. The world is saved. There is a clas…

>> The only thing our world needs now is a reorientation away from growth at all costs into a mode of life that values the simple, the close by, the cheap. Well, populism and xenophobia are simple, as simple as it gets, they appeal to base urges that demand no thinking (indeed require to not think at all). The whole world is nowadays "close by", thanks to cheap flights everywhere. And the labour that produces all the…

Thanks, no.

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#316

Post by ripsawridge » Tue, Nov 06, 2018, 7:00 PM UTC

RichardCA wrote: post #268

ripsawridge wrote: post #222

The only thing our world needs now is a reorientation away from growth at all costs into a mode of life that values the simple, the close by, the cheap. I don't see this guy giving a damn about that problem. Instead he tosses off bon mots about Popper and Gödel, and intones comfortably that in his view his peers have the right idea because they converge on atheism/agnosticism. Wow. The world is saved. There is a clas…

My understanding has always been that, while some Buddhists do in fact proclaim belief in various deities (Tibetan Buddhism in particular), there is always an acknowledgement that they only exist in the realm of the mind. That is, subjective experience is elevated and the idea that "objective reality" can be experienced is discarded. The common word for this is Nondualism. And this Tim Maudlin person does confess to…

I saw the ideas presented as one of a long stream of similar ideas which have been presented, all of which shape a narrative that obscures more than it reveals. I happened to make a comment on this instance. It's great that you don't see a conflict or have any issues with the ideas presented...I'm a different person.

One thing that's happened regarding Buddhism is that western people have picked up the things they like and ignored the rest. In reality, Buddhists think that the experience of Oneness that they reach is real. They may give it different names. But I haven't heard it said by them that the experience is limited to the mind (by which you must mean an individual brain in a head). I think western "apologists" for Buddhism have done that, in order to curry favor...to win over a handful of materialists.

They are wasting their time. A materialist is already someone who staked out the least courageous position of engagement in life. What good is their approval?

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#317

Post by ripsawridge » Tue, Nov 06, 2018, 7:07 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #265

ripsawridge wrote: post #222

The only thing our world needs now is a reorientation away from growth at all costs into a mode of life that values the simple, the close by, the cheap. I don't see this guy giving a damn about that problem. Instead he tosses off bon mots about Popper and Gödel, and intones comfortably that in his view his peers have the right idea because they converge on atheism/agnosticism. Wow. The world is saved. There is a clas…

You cannot not have growth at all cost if you want to survive. Technology is a natural part of evolution and if you do not adapt to that you will not survive. What you can have is growth with a less negative impact which will be incentivized by growth. But you can't suddenly stop growth and expect the results to be positive and the only reason you can even think about it being possible today is that you are piggyback…

I would just ask you to imagine the world you are going to get if you think "growth at all cost" is what is necessary to survive. Won't it eventually be a world in which it's no longer possible to grow?

I'm definitely piggybacking on what growth made possible. I wouldn't have been born otherwise. But I can still see a shitty situation and call it what it is.

Finally, technology is tool-making. We make tools to improve our lives. However, some tools grow too large and come to dominate us. At some point continually "adapting" to outsized tools becomes a fools game.

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#318

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Nov 06, 2018, 7:12 PM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #271

ripsawridge wrote: post #222

The only thing our world needs now is a reorientation away from growth at all costs into a mode of life that values the simple, the close by, the cheap. I don't see this guy giving a damn about that problem. Instead he tosses off bon mots about Popper and Gödel, and intones comfortably that in his view his peers have the right idea because they converge on atheism/agnosticism. Wow. The world is saved. There is a clas…

Why are you so upset that an irreligious person has a small platform to discuss their views? They aren't forcing you to change your views, and the religious are still by far the majority that are pushing for growth at all costs. Yet you actively hope for a return to the time when irreligious views are silenced, seemingly just because they disagree with you.

[deleted]

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#319

Post by ThomPete » Tue, Nov 06, 2018, 7:21 PM UTC

ripsawridge wrote: post #317

ThomPete wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot not have growth at all cost if you want to survive. Technology is a natural part of evolution and if you do not adapt to that you will not survive. What you can have is growth with a less negative impact which will be incentivized by growth. But you can't suddenly stop growth and expect the results to be positive and the only reason you can even think about it being possible today is that you are piggyback…

I would just ask you to imagine the world you are going to get if you think "growth at all cost" is what is necessary to survive. Won't it eventually be a world in which it's no longer possible to grow? I'm definitely piggybacking on what growth made possible. I wouldn't have been born otherwise. But I can still see a shitty situation and call it what it is. Finally, technology is tool-making. We make tools to improv…

I would agree with you if by "growth at all cost", optimization wasn't part of the equation but it is and thus we are constantly becoming more effective.

And yes it might be that we grow ourselves into extinction as a species if we can't optimize enough but there is a reason why people flee places that don't have growth and look for places that do.

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#320

Post by ripsawridge » Tue, Nov 06, 2018, 7:23 PM UTC

8bitsrule wrote: post #295

ripsawridge wrote: post #222

The only thing our world needs now is a reorientation away from growth at all costs into a mode of life that values the simple, the close by, the cheap. I don't see this guy giving a damn about that problem. Instead he tosses off bon mots about Popper and Gödel, and intones comfortably that in his view his peers have the right idea because they converge on atheism/agnosticism. Wow. The world is saved. There is a clas…

Yes, yes, and yes. Although I'd point out that: Zen has no God or gods or beliefs.

Thanks! I'd quibble a bit with that though. I love the way Zen banishes ideas and concepts, throwing them into the fire the moment they reify. However there is a something. A something greater. That is very much the point. To perceive it, to align with it.

Zen knows that ideas in the mind prevent you from doing this, that's why they are so militant about banishing concepts.

For example, when we westerners say "God," we attach all kinds of stuff to it. Near-eastern King, sitting frowning on a throne.

Buddhism would agree with none of that. And so, to them, that kind of God doesn't exist.

A field which surrounds us though...this is the Buddhist idea of God and it's precisely what our culture is at war with. As materialists, we continually deny that such a thing could be. My argument is that we should seriously think about this idea.

I'm no religious scholar, though I practice zen. I certainly have some things wrong and am happy to be corrected.