If people were not so stuck up on individual action, that would be some progress towards solving climate change. One of the big obstacles is admitting that we need collective action to solve this worldwide problem. Would ee propose individual action when less dangerous situations occur in society? Say, a bank run is imminent. Does individual action work? Does the government broadcast it on the 8 o'clock news and do t…
Do you think there's anyone promoting individual action who'd be against collective action? Or could a small individual action be a gateway to participating in collective action?
What can I do about climate change?
201–210 of 243 posts
Re: What can I do about climate change?
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wondered, but couldn't make sense of that. How is providing commercial bees in bulk a detriment to the environment? When is another bee a problem?
I have no personal anecdotes to bring in here, but they said: > Part of the reason wild bee colonies are collapsing is because of the diseases cultivated by commercial colonies. So if another bee comes at the cost of multiple existing bees, that's a problem.
Re: What can I do about climate change?
#203If people were not so stuck up on individual action, that would be some progress towards solving climate change. One of the big obstacles is admitting that we need collective action to solve this worldwide problem. Would ee propose individual action when less dangerous situations occur in society? Say, a bank run is imminent. Does individual action work? Does the government broadcast it on the 8 o'clock news and do t…
Banks can be shut down to prevent bank runs, but only temporarily. You can't just close the bank down or heavily restrict withdrawals forever without significant negative consequences. Fighting climate change is not a short term proposition. Even if you are totally correct, it's irrelevant unless (A) you can maintain democratic support for such collective actions, or (B) you get rid of democracy. In the US at least,…
I think there are other reasons why Democrats don't propose strong climate regulation, such as the large donations they receive from people in fossil fuel.
There is already very strong democratic support for collective actions. Think of all the climate marches, the protests and occupation of DAPL, anti-fracking movements, etc. People who strongly support collective actions way outnumber the people who oppose it. It's just that those who oppose it have all the political and economic power in our society.
The Liberals in power are collaborating with Conservatives and killing collective action solutions by engaging with respectability politics. One is not allowed to protest except for at very specific times and in ways that are chosen by those in power to be acceptable. Any protest that gets too rowdy is decried by both sides. The only other way you are allowed to resist climate change is by buying the expensive stuff in the green packaging rather than the other stuff.
Re: What can I do about climate change?
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
Banks can be shut down to prevent bank runs, but only temporarily. You can't just close the bank down or heavily restrict withdrawals forever without significant negative consequences. Fighting climate change is not a short term proposition. Even if you are totally correct, it's irrelevant unless (A) you can maintain democratic support for such collective actions, or (B) you get rid of democracy. In the US at least,…
> The problem isn't that collective action needs to be taken, it's that sufficient collective action won't sufficiently be supported by voters. That's why Democrats aren't proposing it I think there are other reasons why Democrats don't propose strong climate regulation, such as the large donations they receive from people in fossil fuel. There is already very strong democratic support for collective actions. Think o…
I think people will say they support collective actions right up until those collective actions actually affect their lifestyle. That's why even a lot of democratic policy efforts have been geared toward subsidies instead of reducing use. Much of the populace genuinely is OK with someone else's money being spent on solar, wind, and EV credits. When it means they can't afford to fly for their annual vacation, it's a different story.
Re: What can I do about climate change?
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's a fallacy with this type of thinking. It's something to the effect that "the big bad wolf is causing the trouble, therefore, I'm powerless to do anything" The reason corporations do what they do is because they are providing a service to millions of customers at the lowest cost and the highest profits for them. We, consumers, like to shift all the blame to someone else, it lets us continue as we have without…
I, and many others, can definitely do a lot -- but other people have done the math and concluded that we don't amount for anything but a blip in statistics. There is a link in this thread giving the same perspective as well. I'd like the world to start attacking the source of issues top-to-bottom and not bottom-to-top. Can the citizens help? Absolutely. Will they amount for much unless corporations start taking actio…
If you change your lifestyle significantly, you are not just a blip in statistics. Your actions rub off on other people, your vote supports the right people, and with enough time you help the right mindset to prevail.
Besides, presuming you are not climate change skeptic, what other rational choice do you have?
Re: What can I do about climate change?
#206Nothing. Climate change happens with or without humans. I'm so sick of the climate change fearmongering already. What we will do is adapt, like we always have. The earth is always in a state of "climate change". Humans have experienced experienced climate change for much of our existence. We even lived through a "global warming" and a "little ice age" just a few hundred years ago. https://www.britannica.com/science/L…
Your argument is: - Contradicting almost all of current science on the topic, without even a cursory attempt to make an argument for such a vast conspiracy - Extrapolating from a grand total of one example (Malthus), without explaining why that should be relevant 200 years later. You could just as easily point to predictions of doom before each world war, and marvel how accurately those came true. - Engaging in the g…
None of what you listed has anything to do with my argument. You just wrote a wall of straw man.
> - ...going complete off the deep in the end. As in "How many kids, vacations, cars, etc are created because BBC exists?", a sentence that makes me understand how my dog feels when they tilt their head just so, and look at me with their big, questioning eyes.
So we are agreed. Climate change isn't that big of a deal and the BBC will continue with its business? The world isn't going to end eh?
Don't worry, I used to be a crazed "world is ending" global warming nut too. Hell even tried the lunacy called veganism for a little bit. I grew out of that phase. I'm sure one day you will too.
I don't want to waste more time with a zealot because I know where this leads. Nowhere. So let me just state this.
I believe humans are affecting the climate ( to a small degree ) and affecting the environment ( to a larger degree ). Humans will adapt and life will go on. Not losing any sleep over climate change just like al gore flying comfortable in his private jet. But feel free to run around screaming "the world is ending".
Re: What can I do about climate change?
#207the truth it's if you live in Europe or northern America you don't need to do anything, developing world it's polluting planet on such scale that our individual actions are pointless, so for starters China and India should stop their destruction of environment and then we can talk about doing something in western world
the article doesn't also mention scale at which are freight megaships polluting environment, compared to what it's flying nothing
Re: What can I do about climate change?
#208> 9. But if I eat less meat or take fewer flights, that’s just me – how much of a difference can that really make? > > Actually, it’s not just you. Social scientists have found that when one person makes a sustainability-oriented decision, other people do too. This is the thing that still gives me hope. Try to do good, and people will notice - and, without so much as telling others to something, they will emulate you…
Anecdotal, but I went vegan 3 years ago and in those 3 years, quite a few of my very close friends went vegan or vegetarian as well. It really does give me a lot of hope. Even my parents started eating meat a lot less, basically only for big events and startet using oat milk for their coffee!
Re: What can I do about climate change?
#209This graphic give a pretty good summary of the relative impact: https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/hire...
Re: What can I do about climate change?
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Science is never settled, already there they start the misinformation Science is never settled, but arrives at increasingly accurate approximations of reality. If climate science's best approximation is doom, the rational collective response is not ignorance, but simultaneously to explore and exploit (address) the problem. Exploration by better modeling of the climate, and exploitation by pursuing known best soluti…
"Science is never settled, but arrives at increasingly accurate approximations of reality." Not necessarily and that's certainly not settled. Kuhns paradigms is another way to think about it than Poppers idea of building knowledge as bricks that create a house. I am not convinced knowledge works the way we normally think about it. Furthermore "climate science" is not actually following the scientific principles as it…
>"Climate science" is metascience in the sense that it builds on and interprets data which has its own set of issues besides the issues with data modeling.
Yes, findings about climate are not reproducible in the straight and narrow sense of the scientific method, but there are methods to reason about these findings. Consider the utility of epidemiology, and how it informs medicine and health policies.
> There are plenty of examples of mistakes, false predictions, cheating with the data etc. that anyone who wants to have an opinion on this should be really really really careful how much we actually can demonstrate vs. how much is speculated. Just taking it on faith that the scientific community is in agreement about a lot of the details is simply misguided.
I take it that there is a broad consensus that climate change is man-made and that carbon emissions are very likely a huge driver of it. Many scientific professional organizations have issued statements about it. Many governments see the need to at least pay lip service to it.
> Kuhns paradigms
No, paradigm shifts help develop new and more accurate theory, but old theories still hold. Newtonian mechanics doesn't become obsolete even if a more accurate quantum picture has been developed. Even the primitive, less precise, yet intuitive Aristotelian notion of motion can be useful in many contexts, e.g. game physics that need to enable an unreal amount of control yet feel psychologically natural.
> in fact, if we did it probably would lead to more death than the consequences of flooding and it certainly will lead to more poor people without any means to deal with the ever-changing climate.
I don't see how the thrust of this statement is consistent with the immediate statement before
> IMO is not discussion whether humans are affecting it as we can't change that and will not change that,
> nature is fundamentally friendly and safe towards us and we are destroying it, my position is that nature is fundamentally hostile and dangerous and that we are using technology to be safer from it
I don't see how any general disposition of nature towards human society has any relevance toward my claim that solutions toward climate change must include an aspect that is not just technological products and services.
> Flying less, eating less meat isn't the solution to the problem, more actual science, engineering and entrepreneurship and making people richer so they start caring about their close environment is.
> Flying less, eating less meat isn't the solution to the problem.
I contend that they can be an important part of the solution to the problem. If it becomes sufficiently socially unacceptable, these activities will see a significant decrease. Many citizens already considers many activities taboo and immoral due to the influence of their society; online fraud, adultery, taking more than their fair share of an obvious common good when they don't need it; it is possible to frame excessive air travel or meat consumption as immoral.
> more actual science, engineering and entrepreneurship and making people richer so they start caring about their close environment is.
Similarly, I contend that collective agitation is important to enable the means that you cite. "more actual science, engineering and entrepreneurship" is enabled by voting for governments interested in funding research. The availability of science is enabled by the collective action of researchers and sponsors advocating for open access. The success and feasibility of entrepreneurship is enabled by voting for governments interested in limiting monopolies and anti-competitive behavior. The collective signaling of consumers that they are ready for alternatives encourage the establishment of businesses to cater to these alternatives, and to cater to them more efficiently. Without this signaling, one is less certain if there is a market for it, and hence such lines of business becomes riskier.
My second last point on societal attitudes argues against your position that an abstract notion of technology is necessary to tackle environmental problems. My last point argues against your position that it is sufficient.