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Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

blogs.scientificamerican.com

251–260 of 338 posts

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience when philosophers say something about those things, they say it in natural language (typically English), and that is not precise enough for measurement. All problems can be handwaved away with ad-hoc modification. The difference between philosophers 'doing' AI and what e.g. DeepMind do is that the latter are precise enough (indeed as precise as possible -- pace the Church-Turing thesis) about their r…

> The difference between philosophers 'doing' AI and what e.g. DeepMind do is that the latter are precise enough (indeed as precise as possible -- pace the Church-Turing thesis) about their research hypotheses that they can measure and confirm/refute their hypotheses, unlike the former. They still remain in a framework of axioms we made. This gains nothing, and what's more, many scientists used to know this. Everythi…

I agree with "visarga"!

As far I can see von Neumann's theory of economic games has been the single biggest step forward towards a better understanding of ethics.

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#252
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Philosophy is not science becase it does not work. I'm slightly amused by this statement, as modern science is descended directly from philosophy. Indeed without philosophy, I could easily argue there is no science as we know it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_philosophy

Language changes over time, you can’t use an outdated 18th century term to refer to the modern linguistic meaning of a term. Now days we call the useless bits philosophy, 200 years ago back when people took Phrenology as a real thing that was not true.

> Language changes over time, you can’t use an outdated 18th century term to refer to the modern linguistic meaning of a term.

Thats just it though, science is natural philosophy. Doesn't get changed by modern terminology at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science

Your personal definition of science and philosophy don't override the overall usage of the terms. Feel free to encourage their use, but know those definitions aren't the overall accepted definitions in use.

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Redefining "truth is knowable" to "truth is knowable with infinite certainty a la Descartes" is itself a deeply contentious epistemological stance, and still doesn't validate the use of the term "faith" for ordinary abductive reasoning from experience.

I did no such redefinition. Though I also didn't downvote you, because I think it's a valid misunderstanding. I'm arguing that mere truth is unknowable without faith. We have evidence of derangement all around us and it takes faith to proceed as though our actions are our own and are unclouded. From a bayesian perspective, one of our priors must be that there is some probability that the very mind that is doing the t…

>I'm arguing that mere truth is unknowable without faith.

Could you please define "mere" truth?

>From a bayesian perspective, one of our priors must be that there is some probability that the very mind that is doing the thinking may be of a nature that is unable to effectively reason.

Nonetheless, that probability can be very low, putting us firmly in normal epistemological territory and not requiring any "faith". In fact, millions of people regularly make the rational, but clouded, assessment that they are too drunk to drive, and take a taxi home.

(Also, from a Bayesian perspective, the form of the generative model and priors is up to the experimenter. From a formal epistemology perspective, you can either try to designate some optimal universal prior, or you can take a variational approach and simply say you want to minimize KL divergence of your predictive posterior from your available data.)

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#254
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I believe in science because it works" is not an argumentum ad consequentiam. What characterizes an AaC is the following structure: if X were true then the consequences would be good/bad; therefore X is (probably) true/false. So if eli_gottlieb were saying "I believe in science because it would be lovely if science were right", that would be an AaC. But that's not at all what he's saying. The form of his argument is…

See how you used the word seem there? That's where the little faith bits seep in. In the seems.

Faith and plausibility remain two different things, unless you really want to argue that "faith" is simply "any overcoming of radical skepticism or solipsism".

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#255
post #245
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Talmud is basically the collected notes on the study of the Torah, which was was supposedly (capital-R) Revealed by a supernatural authority on Mount Sinai. Just because people spent a long time debating the interpretation of their holy book (and accompanying oral tradition) does not make it any less grounded in the supernatural, at the end of the day. Followers still have to either b…

You're not wrong, per se, but you are parroting the fundamentalist party line. Maybe I've just got a unique perspective on the issue (I'm a Unitarian Universalist; everyone at my church respects my atheism as a sincere and personally fulfilling spiritual journey and a valuable perspective within the community at large), but I don't think science and religion are as opposed as the cultural narrative would suggest. Rel…

> but I don't think science and religion are as opposed as the cultural narrative would suggest.

I agree. I take a fundamental interpretation approach to the Bible. I firmly believe that science must jive with my belief-set. If it doesn't, there are serious questions that I need to answer.

Personally, this calls into question things like evolutionary theory, or creation theories that don't match what I can extract from the Bible.

I don't purport to know everything, nor do I think I'll ever manage to answer all the outstanding questions. I also don't claim correctness on either side of the question. What is important for me is cognitive resonance.

> Religion, broadly speaking, aims to answer a variety of questions; most foundationally [...]

No. I would counter that religion (in general) seeks to answer the "why" of it all.

> It's the grain of sand that the Talmudic pearl accreted around, no more, no less.

"Seek and you will find..." in this case, we go looking for answers and eventually, (sometimes) in matters that can't be handled scientifically, we settle on suitable answers.

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like you. There's been a total over-correction away from religion and we've lost sight of why it evolved in the first place. Social scientists have long known that there is nothing rational about the decisions we make, and certainly not in groups. Religion may have led us to quite a bit of violence in the past and might not have given us self-driving cars, but simply understanding the universe is not going to be en…

Religion is not about certainty or uncertainty but about a higher purpose, about meaning. This life, this pain, this suffering needs to amount to something or why bother continuing? Religion doesn't seem the answer, it always creates more problems than it solves. It thrives on suffering. Because suffering creates a need for religion, it sustains itself this way. Can we find meaning and purpose in our existence in a w…

>Can we find meaning and purpose in our existence in a way that isn't so detrimental to quality of life, now and in our future?

Look for the meaning inherent in our existence as natural creatures, duh. Once you stop assuming, a priori, as an implicit part of the definition, that meaning must be supernatural, the lack of supernatural revelations stop posing any problem.

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#257
post #225
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With Religion, there is nothing you can do to understand it. You can only "have faith". If your spiritual leader or holy book tells you the world is a certain way, you can only believe it, or disbelieve it, you cannot do anything to investigate the veracity of those claims. Truly, this is the most authoritarian of world views: Believe this because I tell you to! There's a few thousand years of Talmudic scholarship…

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Talmud is basically the collected notes on the study of the Torah, which was was supposedly (capital-R) Revealed by a supernatural authority on Mount Sinai. Just because people spent a long time debating the interpretation of their holy book (and accompanying oral tradition) does not make it any less grounded in the supernatural, at the end of the day. Followers still have to either b…

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Talmud is basically the collected notes on the study of the Torah, which was was supposedly (capital-R) Revealed by a supernatural authority on Mount Sinai.

If you're Orthodox, both the written Torah and the Oral Torah (Talmud) were capital-R Revealed by a supernatural authority at Mount Sinai.

Yes, the study notes for the book were revealed with the book. If you find this confusing, well, go pick up Rudin's Principles to Mathematical Analysis.

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#258
post #239
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying humans are infallible, but trying to argue that "the scientific method isn't perfect because people aren't perfect" is nonsense, especially if the conclusion you want to draw is that "therefore we should respect faith as an alternative means of determining truth". The scientific method IS the best tool our species has when it comes to determining truths about the laws of nature. In fact, it's practical…

> The scientific method IS the best tool our species has when it comes to determining truths about the laws of nature. I agree. But I also believe freedom is better than slavery. I value wisdom over ignorance. And I believe those things without any proof. The scientific method cannot prove to me that murder is wrong, and yet I hold it to be true. So despite the fact that I agree with the power of the scientific metho…

>But I also believe freedom is better than slavery. I value wisdom over ignorance. And I believe those things without any proof.

You believe these things on the same kinds of evidence you use for believing the sun will rise tomorrow.

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religion is not about certainty or uncertainty but about a higher purpose, about meaning. This life, this pain, this suffering needs to amount to something or why bother continuing? Religion doesn't seem the answer, it always creates more problems than it solves. It thrives on suffering. Because suffering creates a need for religion, it sustains itself this way. Can we find meaning and purpose in our existence in a w…

Religion does provide meaning and purpose, but that is hardly all it is "about." Religion also provides inclusion for those that would otherwise feel outcast. It provides social structure and identity. It provides a framework for you to build culture upon. It acts as a moral guide for behavior. It unifies communities around central goals. It uses myth to convey inter-generational wisdom. It teaches rituals that impro…

I can't agree more! A big problem here is that merely to point to reasons for religions to come about (for example, that they solve real problems at the time of their appearance) is to "condone" every terrible thing that ever happened that could be ascribed to religion. Hint to the wise: the doers of terrible things always align the reason for their actions with the current moral authority. Which in this day is likely to be efficient market operations. Their predations may yet be more harmful...we don't have that much history yet in post-religion.

In these discussions, to try and talk about religion as something other than "grotesque superstition" has a hackle-raising effect on people invested in our current cultural totems. The only thing to do for them (the heroic thing), is to fight tooth and claw against those irrational forces trying to coagulate into a new Dark Age of superstition.

Because of this, any real attempts to understand religion are few and far between. It's certainly true that "religion" as experienced by most is a social institution constructed by people of mixed understanding and motivations, and therefore, depressingly, is just as broken as every other organization people create.

These organizations are only the structure erected around a spark that remains almost as mysterious as consciousness itself: the mystical experience of the Divine. I do think philosophy, if it's meaningful at all, should investigate that initial spark. Because it does lead to those good things camelNotation is talking about: inclusion for outsiders; Myth as a durable storage medium for the mores of a culture; Ritual that supports embodied existence, with all it's imperfections and requirements to deal with real suffering.

Personally, I think there is plenty of complexity and intricate thought in that space to keep a generation of technically minded people interested. But alas, they mostly make jokes about a "Sky God" and deny the complexity which they have even inside themselves.

Here is a starting thought: paradoxical language is used in religion precisely because it "stuns" the intellect, forcing it to switch context in ways it doesn't yet understand, but in time, will. It's a kind of interrupt.

A deep inner experience of religion is something that happens on earth because people must endure the unendurable. To pontificate that "oh, they evolved denial, problem solved" is to throw white paint over a breathtaking chiaroscuro. It may be merely an "evolved response," but it deserves more respect.

Re: Philosophy Has Made Plenty of Progress

#260
post #110

> No amount of just grinding out the digits and checking will ever prove it: there are always more digits to check. This guy doesn't know how mathematical proofs work. If the above was close to reality, nobody could ever proof Fermat's major theorem, because there are "always more triples of numbers to check". > All Gödel did was find a clever way to construct a provably unprovable mathematical fact. That not what Gö…

You're taking that bit out of context. In that sentence he's talking about a very specific thought experiment in which we constuct a theory that certain digits in the root of 17 and the 27th power of pi match. I think his arbitrary example is supposed to be an analogy of Godel's work.

Example: let’s say that the decimal expressions of the square root of 17 and pi to the 27th power “match” just in case either they have the same digit in the tenths place, or the same two digits in the next two places, or the same three digits in the next three places, etc.

The point of his example here is that the 'match' is defined in never-ending terms. If the 10th digit doesn't match, you check the next two. If they don't match, you check the next three. And so on. You can go on comparing digits forever, even though finding a 'match' becomes less and less likely.

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