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As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

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Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#411

Post by vorpalhex »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #286
vorpalhex wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> inevitably other people will jump up and say (in essence) "Well, that isn't true for me and you are evil and bad and wrong for saying this is true for women generally and you don't represent me!!!!!" type nonsense. Your detractors are engaging in the No True Scotsman fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman One of the issues is that identity is, for most, a very emotional construct and anything which…

My firsthand experience has been that simply ignoring such responses tends to lead to the individual in question behaving in an increasingly unhinged fashion and actively hounding me as if they will not be satisfied until I reply to them in specific. But perhaps that isn't really an argument for not simply ignoring them. It's just the reason I have tended to not go that route historically.

As one of my peers noticed one time: "I can't solve other peoples problems for them, but I can choose to leave them out of my life when they refuse to solve their own issues."

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#412

Post by JimGuns »

sctb wrote: post #363
JimGuns wrote: post #222

I guess the alt.left and feminists are busy today flagging the opinions they dont like. Typical one sided liberal debates.

Since it really doesn't look like you're going to follow the guidelines, we've banned this account. We're happy to unban accounts if you email hn@ycombinator.com and we believe you'll start using the site as intended. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Sorry. Didn't know that this was a site that was only for leftist opinions. Sad.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#413

Post by pj_mukh »

faceplanted wrote: post #115
grenoire wrote: post #31

This follows a series of validation studies (incl. e.g. http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797617741719 ) from this year especially. The results seem to consistently show the same 'paradoxical' outcome. J. Peterson came to my campus last week and I think he mentioned this one specific study, and also noted several other ones, which brought the one I linked to my attention. It really isn't the only one, a…

Is Jordan Peterson any better in person than he seems in his book? I read it after a friend recommended it and he seemed completely insufferable and possibly mildly autistic based on what seemed like a real lack of understanding of the internal lives of others. Lots of people seem to like him, but I can't bring myself to watch him speak in person since everything I see just traversing the internet is framed as him "d…

Seconded. Tried to read some of his stuff. If he stuck to self-help, I think it'd be great. I have no idea why he tries to make (mostly nonsensical) political arguments/connections.

Edit: For a deeper dive into why I specifically used the term "nonsensical". See this article [1]. I was thinking these exact things while reading his writing.

[1] https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/03/the-intellectual-we-d...

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#414

Post by JimGuns »

sctb wrote: post #363
JimGuns wrote: post #222

I guess the alt.left and feminists are busy today flagging the opinions they dont like. Typical one sided liberal debates.

Since it really doesn't look like you're going to follow the guidelines, we've banned this account. We're happy to unban accounts if you email hn@ycombinator.com and we believe you'll start using the site as intended. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Ban everyone that doesn't want to ride the alt-left Hilliary train. Go eat a dick.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#415

Post by munchbunny »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #372
toxik wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still pay the opportunity cost, even if you are getting a monthly income. Why should I hire the person who was away for a solid year on parental leave over the guy who has been working diligently during that time? Forcing parents to have equal amounts of parental leave, as we do in Sweden (well, we incentivized it,) is a form of imposed equality of outcome. Equality of outcome is often said to be some disease of…

Stop believing feminists when they say they want equality of outcome. They don't - they completely ignore how men die at work at ten times the rate of women, put in more hours, take more competitive roles, and generally tend to make more sacrifices in pursuit of well-paying jobs and careers. Feminists don't want equality of outcome. They want to point at the fact that women make less money as a group than men in orde…

Stop believing feminists when they say they want equality of outcome.

Every time someone says this, they follow up with something about a feminist agenda that no woman I've ever talked to actually follows.

what they actually want in practice

Which is what?

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#416

Post by jackconnor »

skybrian wrote: post #304
mindcrime wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it isn't "discriminating based on parental leave". It's "discriminating" based on experience. The reason why someone takes a year (or whatever) off isn't the issue. Does this feel unfair in some sense? Yeah. But would it be less unfair to artificially punish the person who didn't take time off? Questionable...

I guess there may be some situations where one year of experience more or less makes a big difference, but it doesn't seem like that big a deal? It would be like hiring someone one year younger.

I wish this were true, but in technology (my field) one year can make you fairly outdated and unprepared to perform strong interviews. And in some tech industries such as frontend web development, one year is practically a lifetime.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#417

Post by Frondo »

jaxtellerSoA wrote: post #310
Emma_Goldman wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Have you ever wondered whether there's other human values - perhaps kinder and more loving values - than venal self-interest and capital accumulation? 2. The word 'choice' is not really apposite here, given that one sex, by the mere lottery of birth, carries the burden of pregnancy (and, culturally - with a similar determinacy - women are expected to rear their children in their early years).

> 2. The word 'choice' is not really apposite here, given that one sex, by the mere lottery of birth, carries the burden of pregnancy Welcome to life, it isn't equal, and never will be. Maybe we should stop trying to make the playing field level and just appreciate and celebrate the differences.

We're all building a future together here, and "life isn't equal and never will be" is a dire, shitty attitude to take.

You said I have fluffy unicorn ideology in another thread here, and I think that's bullshit, especially in the resource-rich 21st century. As resource-rich as we are now, the future's gonna be even brighter.

If you just want to recreate the "life is unequal" structures in the 22nd century, why fucking bother at all?

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#418

Post by js8 »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #302
js8 wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe people don't always prefer what's best for them, but I believe that even when they don't, they are the best arbiter of that. In other words, maybe they don't know what's best for them but then neither does anybody else. I mean, when I talk about asking, you can make education part of the asking the question. I am certainly not against more education, like showing what is it like to be engineer. I might disagree…

If I understand you correctly there is a short reply to your kind of critique in Section 5 of the first link I gave, under the subsection titled "Illiberalism". It's a viable critique that has been (and still is) discussed extensively, of course.

Interesting. I will have to think about it more, but I can't say I completely agree with Rawls either. I don't agree that economic value of things is completely subjective, either.

It seems to me that these problems should be addressed with education first, rather than by imposing someone else's preference on people (which is my main worry here). Therefore, that some rural Indian women might decide differently is not really transferable to decisions made by well-educated women in western postindustrial societies.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#419

Post by sokoloff »

Ari_Ugwu wrote: post #409
sokoloff wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason should not be relevant. The fact that they did could be (in some cases), IMO.

Many people here have echoed the fears and complaints I've heard on this topic. Simply that somehow taking parental leave at all puts you at a disadvantage. Or puts you in a position where you have to explain yourself. I feel like what is being done here is to [ironically] force an equality of outcome on every metric _except_ the one that swings the argument. The very nature of equality of _opportunity_ means to me t…

I'm not at all curious about your year off (other than as incidental conversation if you choose to bring it up). I am curious about your experience and competency, both overall and in terms of recency/currency, as I believe both of those are strongly correlated to your projected contributions to my company.

A pilot with 5K hours of experience is more experienced (in the pilot job market) than one with 4K. I don't care that you could have had that extra 1K hours if you'd worked an extra year instead of doing something else. I only care whether you do or don't (as it pertains to this dimension of the evaluation).

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#420

Post by bacon_waffle »

ummonk wrote: post #298
illumin8 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this response, and the downvotes on the parent comment, incredibly sad. If you want to live in a libertarian fantasy world with no safety net, you are free to create one, and try to attract citizens to your country. Even in prehistoric times, it was generally understood that there was societal benefit to letting women take care of children when they were extremely young and that perhaps letting a new mother sk…

Parental leave is not a safety net. Parenthood can be planned - it isn't some random catastrophe that befalls you for which you need an insurance safety net. Note that I do support strong parental leave policies, and advocate for such wherever I work.

> Parenthood can be planned - it isn't some random catastrophe that befalls you for which you need an insurance safety net.

While you're obviously right that one can plan to become pregnant, that doesn't make unplanned pregnancies a non-issue. So, that safety net is beneficial.

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