Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country • Hacker News Board

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#111

Post by conanbatt » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 3:39 PM UTC

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #89

briandear wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would rather someone else pay for your beliefs? The disproportionately rich already pay a disproportionate share of taxes. The top 1% earn 19% of the income but pay 35% of the taxes in the US. I’m not sure that’s fair. Rich people also create the jobs: if they pay more, they have less incentive to invest more which means fewer businesses being funded and fewer jobs.

I generally agree with you here, but as an aside there is one nuance you have to consider. And that's taxation vs disposable income. Imagine somebody earns $50k and spends $30k on their living expenses and pays a 30% tax rate. They have $20k left after their basic living expenses, but $15k of that is eaten up by taxes. Looking at their disposable income, they're paying a ridiculous tax rate of 75%. I think it's more…

This is a convoluted interpretation of utilitarianism, which is the moral justification for progressive taxation in the general case.

The last 10 bucks of a rich person are worth less to him than the last 10 bucks of a poor person in terms of diminishing returns.

What I dislike enormously about utilitarian arguments is that, provided some evidence, you can justify anything. For example: why ever spend money on homeless people that will not work: its better to spend that money in literally anything else.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#112

Post by Abutere » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

jakelarkin wrote: post #16

this is the Nash Equilibrium type problem that exists with US federalism and extreme poverty. Cities just ship people around hoping to reduce their share of cost, while the homeless just become more physically sick or addicted, and mentally traumatized, so they become more costly to care for in aggregate over a lifetime. Everyone is worse off. It would be so much simpler, cheaper if society just got people back on th…

I feel that a large percentage of the perpetually homeless, not those who were living paycheck to paycheck and ended up homeless for a few months, have such severe mental illness that they simply can't get "back on their feet". Usually schizophrenia or narcotics addiction. I'd be curious to see if their illness caused the homelessness or they developed it from the trauma of living on the street.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#113

Post by conanbatt » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 3:42 PM UTC

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #99

Bahamut wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's more to it here - the wealthy generally are able to better play long games to further save more, better able to handle unexpected life events that could devastate the less prepared, and have better alignment with the government fighting/optimizing for their use cases. There are a lot more reasons as to the exponential advantages the wealthy generally enjoy suggest that the wealthy should indeed get taxed more…

Sure, but I think this starts getting into ideology. I think people should be taxed rates that, in a vacuum, can be considered fair. I pay 15% of what I can, you pay 15% of what you can is about as fair as you can get. The reason I'm not fond of going beyond this is because you start getting into very subjective territory. For instance while I agree with all you've said, excepting your conclusion, I'm sure you'd also…

> but at the same time I also don't see any clear logical flaw in it.

Great example! And I agree. The example you give is one of the reasons I have with progressive taxation, by the definition of %. Someone with 1,000,000 income and someone with 30,000 paying the same rate, the richer pays a lot more than he will use from the state. So in effect, a flat-tax rate is most likely already progressive.

I am in favor of a flat tax-rate for all, without deductions or exceptions. And I would go a step further and make the contributions public or pseudo-public.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#114

Post by darawk » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #108

darawk wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's entirely incorrect. We track all of these layers in fact. No....it is entirely correct. The unemployment rate that was quoted was exactly as I described. I didn't say the other statistics weren't tracked , I said the statistic quoted above, and the thing commonly referred to as "the unemployment rate" does not count it.

You said "People who aren't looking at all don't show up in the statistics." Why would a reasonable reader assume that "statistics" means "specifically U3 unemployment"?

Because the standard meaning of 'unemployment rate' is 'U3 unemployment rate'. I and many other people believe that it shouldn't be that way, but it is. When people quote 'the unemployment rate', they mean 'U3', without exception.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#115

Post by darawk » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 4:41 PM UTC

yayana wrote: post #105

darawk wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You recognize that given this bus ticket opportunity, the homeless will actually converge on rich coastal cities, right? This problem is actually worse for the rich people that live in places like LA and SF.

The rule of having a place to stay in most of the programs causes the counter examples in the article.

Yep, but that still doesn't support the grandparent's point.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#116

Post by jakelarkin » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 4:44 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #73

jakelarkin wrote: post #16

this is the Nash Equilibrium type problem that exists with US federalism and extreme poverty. Cities just ship people around hoping to reduce their share of cost, while the homeless just become more physically sick or addicted, and mentally traumatized, so they become more costly to care for in aggregate over a lifetime. Everyone is worse off. It would be so much simpler, cheaper if society just got people back on th…

With the hundreds of millions SF spends on the homeless, it could be fair to say that a large number of homeless don’t want “care” or “re-housing.” The city spends more and more and it doesn’t make a dent in the numbers. An objective observer might suggest that the more you subsidize something, the more of it you get. Compared to most places, it’s easier to be homeless in San Francisco, which could create a disincent…

i agree SF needs less coddling and way stronger sticks (at least for the young & able-bodied), but fundamentally theres no where for these people to go to try to get it together. cost of housing way above welfare/SSID in a 50 mile radius. there's zero net shelter space. because the political incentives on the west coast (nimby, mellow weather, already high taxes) are to not bother to build them.

theres also not enough jail space or PD headcount, so dealers, petty burglars just cycle in and out without consequence. its a vicious cycle of extreme poverty that starts and ends with a corrupt, poorly run local government

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#117

Post by isoskeles » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 4:47 PM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #82

briandear wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would rather someone else pay for your beliefs? The disproportionately rich already pay a disproportionate share of taxes. The top 1% earn 19% of the income but pay 35% of the taxes in the US. I’m not sure that’s fair. Rich people also create the jobs: if they pay more, they have less incentive to invest more which means fewer businesses being funded and fewer jobs.

World's tiniest golden violin. I am also against disproportionate taxes on the rich, but lets not start pitying them or assigning value to their well being above societies. Liberty above everything else, and I dont want anyone to suffer any consequence under the veil of "trickle-down econ", which is not what people think it is.

Nah, I feel for the disproportionately rich. They’re constantly blamed for society’s ills, for the sin of having wealth, to the point where I’m sure something like 15% of the population would be happy with dragging them into the streets and beheading them. I’m tired of hearing about the “disproportionately rich” and the unoriginal idea that their resources are the only solution. It’s tiring to see people continue piling on with that rhetoric.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#118

Post by FiveSquared » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

isoskeles wrote: post #117

conanbatt wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

World's tiniest golden violin. I am also against disproportionate taxes on the rich, but lets not start pitying them or assigning value to their well being above societies. Liberty above everything else, and I dont want anyone to suffer any consequence under the veil of "trickle-down econ", which is not what people think it is.

Nah, I feel for the disproportionately rich. They’re constantly blamed for society’s ills, for the sin of having wealth, to the point where I’m sure something like 15% of the population would be happy with dragging them into the streets and beheading them. I’m tired of hearing about the “disproportionately rich” and the unoriginal idea that their resources are the only solution. It’s tiring to see people continue pil…

And not knowing whos real and whos fake. But, they should pay a fair share. BTW, The best income is 299k at Reigh NC.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#119

Post by FiveSquared » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 6:01 PM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #113

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I think this starts getting into ideology. I think people should be taxed rates that, in a vacuum, can be considered fair. I pay 15% of what I can, you pay 15% of what you can is about as fair as you can get. The reason I'm not fond of going beyond this is because you start getting into very subjective territory. For instance while I agree with all you've said, excepting your conclusion, I'm sure you'd also…

> but at the same time I also don't see any clear logical flaw in it. Great example! And I agree. The example you give is one of the reasons I have with progressive taxation, by the definition of %. Someone with 1,000,000 income and someone with 30,000 paying the same rate, the richer pays a lot more than he will use from the state. So in effect, a flat-tax rate is most likely already progressive. I am in favor of a…

But what about the extremely poor?

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#120

Post by mncharity » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 6:55 PM UTC

abfan1127 wrote: post #61

mncharity wrote: post #58

I wonder to what extent poor non-homeless populations are similarly shifted around the country, albeit more slowly? A city in New Hampshire used federal funds to build low-income housing. Which attracted low-income people. Who disproportionately used city services. Which cost more than the added taxes and federal funds which came with them. So the city bought low-income housing. And tore it down. Which seems analogou…

do you have a link to this?

No, sorry, conversation with principals. Many years ago.