Live data from Hacker News

As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

science.sciencemag.org

341–350 of 536 posts

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would 50/50 gender parity across all industries ever be a desirable goal? Coal mining is male dominated -- should we push more women into becoming coal miners?

> Why would 50/50 gender parity across all industries ever be a desirable goal? If women and men "are indeed biologically identical in their job preferences" you could argue a good measure for real equality of opportunity would be 50/50 parity across industries. Because given a fair shake everyone would be evenly distributed across all industries (since we have the same preferences).

"job preferences" is not the same as job aptitude.

In a free market system people are going to be pushed into the jobs for which they have the most aptitude (or out of the workforce if their aptitude is too low/lower than machines) regardless of their preferences.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because outcomes are easy to measure. Oppurtunity isn't. It doesn't help that we have indoctrinated a generation that there is no fundamental difference between any subgroup, so difference in outcome must be evidence of difference in oppurtunity.

Sure outcomes are easy to measure. So what feminists have to say about the lack of males in nursing? The lack of males in social services? The lack of males in elementary schools? The excess of male suicides vs females? Are they actually complaining about the lack of equality of outcome in such fields, or are they just cherry picking what fits their agenda ? A rhetorical question.

A rhetorical question that says "I don't understand what feminism is".

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#343
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses exist at our leisure -- not the other way around. As we build and refine our society, it's entirely up to us to determine how best we want to put businesses to work, to improve society. Anyone who wants the benefits of owning a business can be subject to those rules. Anyone who doesn't want to play by those rules can go solo or work for someone who does.

> Anyone who wants the benefits of owning a business can be subject to those rules. Oh, those benefits of running a business. You know, like working more hours than everyone else, putting your own money on the line, being the last to get paid. Here's some hard facts: 1. Most businesses are small businesses 2. Most people are employed in small to medium businesses 3. Most businesses fail because they lose money If you…

Many small businesses I've seen are also incredibly exploitative. I don't believe we should be defending these practices; if a small business really can't afford basic human decency, maybe it should not exist? And maybe the effort should be refocused on asking how to allow small businesses to afford being humane while not losing ground to large corporations.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#344
post #192
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that book, but it's wrong on childcare being less affordable. Atleast in Denmark and Sweden child care is heavily subsidized, to the point of being free for very low income parents (in dk). So there is no way it can make economic sense for mothers not to work. And stay at home moms (for more than 1-2 years) is rare compared to the USA.

You still pay the opportunity cost, even if you are getting a monthly income. Why should I hire the person who was away for a solid year on parental leave over the guy who has been working diligently during that time? Forcing parents to have equal amounts of parental leave, as we do in Sweden (well, we incentivized it,) is a form of imposed equality of outcome. Equality of outcome is often said to be some disease of…

> Going against our primal instincts is essential for a productive society.

I’m debating with myself about that statement. Is the goal of society a high amount of productivity, or stable, happy families and relationships? It seems means and ends are getting mixed up.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this response, and the downvotes on the parent comment, incredibly sad. If you want to live in a libertarian fantasy world with no safety net, you are free to create one, and try to attract citizens to your country. Even in prehistoric times, it was generally understood that there was societal benefit to letting women take care of children when they were extremely young and that perhaps letting a new mother sk…

HN moderators, you should check the biases of the mod brigade. I'm out of this conversation. Immediate downvotes because I don't agree with the toxic alt-right views that seem to dominate conversations like these. I'm done with this discussion; seems we can't have a meaningful one.

Boo for whining about downvotes and accusing everyone who doesn't agree with you of being alt-right.

You're being intellectually dishonest here. You expect to be able to share your point of view without critical response but you insult others for expressing theirs.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#346
post #95

There's a fairly simple explanation: in egalitarian societies femininity is socially acceptable even in "traditionally male" occupations. So women don't need to act "masculine" to make progress in those jobs. When it's socially acceptable for a CEO to be a mother and a woman, more women will feel comfortable pursuing a family in addition (rather than in exclusion) to a career. There's another fairly simple explanatio…

> There's a fairly simple explanation: in egalitarian societies femininity is socially acceptable even in "traditionally male" occupations. So women don't need to act "masculine" to make progress in those jobs. When it's socially acceptable for a CEO to be a mother and a woman, more women will feel comfortable pursuing a family in addition (rather than in exclusion) to a career.

I don't quite understand what you're saying here. The study doesn't seem to say anything about women "acting masculine" or "acting feminine". It's about gender disparity in careers, and how that disparity is larger in egalitarian soceties and smaller in less egalitarian societies.

> There's another fairly simple explanation: "equal opportunity" is not the same as "non-sexist". Without knowing how "gender-egalitarian"-ness is measured (it's suspicious that it uses the phrase "more developed") it's impossible to tell what the societal attitudes actually look like. But it's entirely possible that the countries with the most egalitarian laws still have strict gender roles that are socially reinforced.

Are you arguing that that North America, Western Europe, and Scandinivia may actually enforce stricter gender roles than Iraq, Iran, and Kazakhstan? That seems...unlikely.

Anyway, the abstract mentions a "Gender Equality Index" that's being discussed here. I imagine they go into more detail in the paper itself if you're curious.

> So either way the lesson isn't "feminism is wrong" or "equal opportunity is meaningless": either equal opportunity allows women to succeed without abandoning their gender role, or egalitarianism masks the harm of socially reinforced gender roles, or maybe even both.

Again, the abstract doesn't seem to be saying anything about gender roles -- it's purely about male and female representation in various careers.

Also, egalitarianism would have to do more than "mask the harm of socially reinforced gender roles," it would have to increase that harm, as less egalitarian countries have less gender disparity.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A similar but slightly different anecdote - I'm a 34-year-old man, and my wife stays home with our two children. We're very aware that this has hurt her earning potential, which means that if I were to die suddenly she'd be in a real financial crisis. To offset that disparity in earning potential, we've had to purchase significant life and disability policies on me.

This, addressed at the macro level, probably calls for the societies to function in ways that incorporate exercise of sufficient sense of solidarity and empathy. A relevant argument is made strongly here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBSUkDXekMM

I can't agree with much of anything in that video. The question is immediately reframed as a strawman ("childcare is not work"), but that's not at all what I'm saying.

My household absolutely derives value from my wife's labor. What is impacted here is earning potential; if my wife were to need to seek employment outside the home in order to earn income, her income would be substantially less than it would have been if she had been gaining relevant experience during this time in our lives.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#348
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Jordan Peterson any better in person than he seems in his book? I read it after a friend recommended it and he seemed completely insufferable and possibly mildly autistic based on what seemed like a real lack of understanding of the internal lives of others. Lots of people seem to like him, but I can't bring myself to watch him speak in person since everything I see just traversing the internet is framed as him "d…

I’d recommend watching one of his lectures rather than clips framed as “Jordan Peterson DESTROYS leftist” (the scourge of YouTube). He’s often intentionally put on the defensive in interviews and can understandably get prickly at continued attempts to wilfully misinterpret his arguments. Better yet, interviews with him and Dave Rubin or Joe Rogan, or his discussions with Sam Harris, are great ways to get a non-combat…

His Biblical series has really helped me find peace in my life. As a former agnostic, I never thought I would reconsider my position on God and a need for the divine. I have way less anxiety than I did before; and it was really really bad before.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it isn't "discriminating based on parental leave". It's "discriminating" based on experience. The reason why someone takes a year (or whatever) off isn't the issue. Does this feel unfair in some sense? Yeah. But would it be less unfair to artificially punish the person who didn't take time off? Questionable...

It occurs to me that you're kind of equating a year of holidays with that of having a baby, which ensures the continuation of our species. In our (HN) case, that is putting a few more technologist offsprings into the mix for what that's worth. I can assure you looking after a baby the first year is not leisure time.

on the other hand, there are already quite a lot of us on this planet. not every single parent is doing a Good Deed by bringing yet another life into this world.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not much of a paradox surely. Those countries introduced equality systems because the imbalance. Now of course those same countries with the imbalance have those introduced systems.

Ah but why would those differences become greater after the introduction of the equality systems? That's the paradox.

As far as I know it doesn't actually say that. The comparison is between countries, not before and after reforms. The paradox is supposedly that countries with higher equality have higher gender differences. But it isn't really a paradox since correlation isn't causation.
Post reply on HN