As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men • Hacker News Board

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#271

Post by amanaplanacanal » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 4:07 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #173

torben-friis wrote: post #37

I wonder how it adjusts for culturally pushed gender differences. Women could have the same opportunities as men but be expected to have different tastes, be subjected to different experiences growing up, etc. which could affect their choices in latter life.

If someone legitimately has a preference then what does it matter whether their preferences are the result of "cultural norms" or personal taste?

I think one of the big western values is that people should have equality of opportunity. If cultural norms direct people into specific, unequal paths in life, is that really equality of opportunity?

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#272

Post by moorhosj » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 4:07 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #264

moorhosj wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the opportunity cost of the mother going right back to work and spending no time with their newborn? Does society absorb that cost?

The father could do that task.

Certainly could, I just finished doing that for my kid. Which still doesn't answer the question of how it benefits society to push parents back into the workforce after birth of a child. The entire "opportunity cost" argument here is focused on the parent's ability to maximize wages or skills, in reality there are other "costs".

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#273

Post by js8 » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 4:07 PM UTC

jonathanstrange wrote: post #181

js8 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the expressed preference may actually be something they loathe, but don't feel empowered to reject" But we can ask them, right? We can ask e.g. nurses and computer programmers whether or not they loathe the choice of their profession. If there is e.g. relatively more computer programmers loathing it than nurses then you have an evidence of culturally pushed preference (towards computer programming, in this case), re…

No, you cannot just ask. It's more complicated than that, as Amartya Sen laid out in many publications on his capability theory . People have "adaptive preferences".[1] For example, if you ask a women in a very poor rural region of India whether she wants to become an engineer, she might value the possibility far less than she would if that career choice was a realistic, valuable option for her in her current situati…

Maybe people don't always prefer what's best for them, but I believe that even when they don't, they are the best arbiter of that. In other words, maybe they don't know what's best for them but then neither does anybody else.

I mean, when I talk about asking, you can make education part of the asking the question. I am certainly not against more education, like showing what is it like to be engineer.

I might disagree with women who decide willingly to wear burka, or decide to be slaves, even if they have a different choice, but as long as they make it freely, I have to respect that choice.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#274

Post by UncleMeat » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #157

gizmo686 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because outcomes are easy to measure. Oppurtunity isn't. It doesn't help that we have indoctrinated a generation that there is no fundamental difference between any subgroup, so difference in outcome must be evidence of difference in oppurtunity.

Sure outcomes are easy to measure. So what feminists have to say about the lack of males in nursing? The lack of males in social services? The lack of males in elementary schools? The excess of male suicides vs females? Are they actually complaining about the lack of equality of outcome in such fields, or are they just cherry picking what fits their agenda ? A rhetorical question.

Yes. There is ample work in academia on these subjects and real work happening in activists communities on these subjects.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#275

Post by js8 » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 4:10 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #137

js8 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might well be a thing but I am not sure if I can truly (or should) help somebody who explicitly says that there is no problem and they don't need help. Assuming they are deemed to be legally competent.

I don't know what all else has been said to you here, but I am absolutely not asking you to help such people. You said you don't understand why other people care so much about sorting out what is biological and what is cultural in origin. A few people (me included) engaged you in discussion to explain why other people might desire to get a better handle on this. I have no idea why you jump from that to some idea that…

I guess it's fine if you decide to help people who don't want the help according to their own preferences, but if you want to make the society at large to help (e.g. through some customs or laws), then I should have a say in it, as a society member.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#276

Post by SolaceQuantum » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

piva00 wrote: post #112

andai wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a startup has mostly women, is that a problem too?

Could be as I have read reports from men in predominantly female fields (as child care services, nursing, etc.) having a feeling of being outsiders and not really included in the workspace. I don't think we have enough data to imply that though.

We do in fact have data about issues with male nurses iirc. It’s a whole social program to get more male nurses, to be respected as female nurses, to be allowed to perform nurse duties to vulnerable demographics such as children and be viewed as similarly safe as a female nurse doing the same.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#277

Post by UncleMeat » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

grenoire wrote: post #145

faceplanted wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Jordan Peterson any better in person than he seems in his book? I read it after a friend recommended it and he seemed completely insufferable and possibly mildly autistic based on what seemed like a real lack of understanding of the internal lives of others. Lots of people seem to like him, but I can't bring myself to watch him speak in person since everything I see just traversing the internet is framed as him "d…

Peterson in person is Peterson in his lectures, see comments below. Make up your mind yourself, and try to understand why people like and hate him both ways. He's a pretty compassionate guy as far as I can tell, he just can't tolerate people who aren't willing to have proper discourse with him.

Does his proper discourse include getting to wildly misrepresent the law, marx, marxism more broadly, individual postmodern thinkers, and postmodernism more broadly?

Peterson doesn't publish his ideas in academic outlets. He is avoiding the proper discourse.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#278

Post by undefined1 » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

cal5k wrote: post #132

faceplanted wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Jordan Peterson any better in person than he seems in his book? I read it after a friend recommended it and he seemed completely insufferable and possibly mildly autistic based on what seemed like a real lack of understanding of the internal lives of others. Lots of people seem to like him, but I can't bring myself to watch him speak in person since everything I see just traversing the internet is framed as him "d…

I’d recommend watching one of his lectures rather than clips framed as “Jordan Peterson DESTROYS leftist” (the scourge of YouTube). He’s often intentionally put on the defensive in interviews and can understandably get prickly at continued attempts to wilfully misinterpret his arguments. Better yet, interviews with him and Dave Rubin or Joe Rogan, or his discussions with Sam Harris, are great ways to get a non-combat…

The in-person discussions between Peterson and Sam Harris were great. It's what discourse should look like.

They "steel man" each other, putting up the best form of each other's arguments. The opposite of creating/attacking straw men.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#279

Post by Someone1234 » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

clord wrote: post #267

Someone1234 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is worth noting that Nima Sanandaji, the author of that and many similar books, is a proponent of small state, free markets, low tax, self determination and responsibility. In other words, he is a libertarian type, that doesn't support the welfare state, and by extension doesn't support requiring employers to offer maternity and paternity leave. He has also argued that Scandinavia is doing well due to the free mar…

I downvote you because the research withstands your attempted ad hominem attack. If the result is good we should not cast dispersion just because the researcher has a particular bias. In fact those times when your ideology does not line up with scientific results are precisely when you should sit up and take notice that perhaps your ideology is failing you.

I wasn't commenting on academic research, I was commenting on the book The Nordic Gender Equality Paradox by Nima Sanandaji. Which is what the comment I was responding to was about.

You downvoted because you either didn't read the comment I responded to or didn't read my own in the context for which it was given.

Nima Sanandaji isn't a researcher and doesn't product academic, scientific, or sociological research. He's a political commentator who writes books and produces opinion pieces for political think-tanks.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#280

Post by amanaplanacanal » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

grenoire wrote: post #214

antt wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like some evidence that under normal [0] circumstances brains which look different act different. So far it sounds like phrenology at best and racist demagoguery at worst when you compare black brains to white brains instead of female to male [1]. I don't understand how someone who would (probably) call themselves progressive can use reheated talking points from 18th century eugenicists without noticing a pro…

I don't know man, I didn't even do a racial comparison. We just know that hormones do have an effect on how your brain works and that males and females do secrete hormones at different levels. You're strawmanning a li'l bit now...

It seems to me that if the exact same argument can lead to results that almost everybody agrees is terrible, then there is something wrong with the argument. I don't think it is strawmanning to point that out.