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As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

science.sciencemag.org

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Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#61

Post by Majestic121 »

tralarpa wrote: post #58
jernfrost wrote: post #52

I am highly sceptical to this study. Does anyone have a list of what they measured as differences and how they did it? The reason I am a sceptic is because as a Scandinavian I notice easily how much more macho men are in less gender equal societies and how much more feminine the women are. I don’t think it is an accident that the world’s top female boxer is Norwegian rather than say Italian. I do there is something t…

> 60% of published papers in life sciences turns out to be rubbish Research in life science: - Very difficult to conduct repeatable experiments of sufficient size - Lot of pressure because of lack of funding (e.g. hard to get money through projects with industry like engineers) - Done by people with problems with logical thinking - Done by people who apply methods (data analysis, statistics,...) without understanding…

> - Very difficult to conduct repeatable experiments of sufficient size

Fair point

> - Lot of pressure because of lack of funding (e.g. hard to get money through projects with industry like engineers)

Fair point

> - Done by people with problems with logical thinking

What ?

> - Done by people who apply methods (data analysis, statistics,...) without understanding them

What ?

> I welcome all downvotes.

Asking for downvotes is the best way to make your message looks like it's coming from an edgy teenager. If you actually want to make your message go through, I would recommend refraining from doing so, even if you think/know you're going against the crowd.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#62

Post by skookumchuck »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #55
skookumchuck wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> expectation is sometimes that women dont swear etc. FWIW, a woman swearing definitely lowers her attractiveness, at least to me, by quite a bit.

For another data point: I'm an American woman. I swear like a sailor. Sadly, this has failed to be man-repellent. If only! My life would be vastly simpler if my foul mouth just got me left the hell alone by men. Also, everything I have read and experienced suggests that other women are a huge source of social pressure on female behavior, possibly far more than male sexual predilections. An actress once said "I dress…

When I pick up my date, if she's obviously spent effort to dress nice for our evening, it's a big plus for me.

A lot of men (me included) check for a ring and do not approach if there is one. Not all men are dissuaded by that, of course.

Consider there are a lot worse things than being attractive to men. Attractiveness makes for many opportunities, studies show that attractive people get paid more and get better tips. I am not physically attractive to women (none of my girlfriends have ever complimented me on my looks) so I have to work that much harder. Maybe they like me because I don't swear :-)

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#63

Post by skookumchuck »

cjslep wrote: post #45
skookumchuck wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> expectation is sometimes that women dont swear etc. FWIW, a woman swearing definitely lowers her attractiveness, at least to me, by quite a bit.

My wife knows how to tell a story and use just a few curse words, if the company is right, to really deliver an impactful, humanizing, and relatable event. It's part of why I love her. Different strokes for different folks.

Swearing can be very impactful when sparingly and appropriately applied. Using "fucking" as a universal adjective and "shit" as a universal noun not only lacks class, it is a complete absence of eloquence.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#64

Post by AnimalMuppet »

js8 wrote: post #48
torben-friis wrote: post #37

I wonder how it adjusts for culturally pushed gender differences. Women could have the same opportunities as men but be expected to have different tastes, be subjected to different experiences growing up, etc. which could affect their choices in latter life.

I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural. (Well, I understand it if we assume they are being dishonest, so assuming that something is not biological allows them to claim that it can be changed to whatever they think is morally superior. The debate whether being gay is cultural is a good example.) If I am given a true freedom to choose, to decide according to my prefere…

I think the idea is that your culture can enslave you in an idea of who you want to be, which isn't really yours, but rather your culture's. The idea seems to be that this identity has been forced on you, and isn't really yours.

This brings up all kinds of nature-vs-nurture questions. It also has a nice recursive issue: Those who hold this view (that you should be free to choose your identity, without your culture imprinting one on you): Did their culture imprint that view on them? (Before you say "no", remember that "their culture" may be the university rather than the town they grew up in.)

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#65

Post by didibus »

js8 wrote: post #48
torben-friis wrote: post #37

I wonder how it adjusts for culturally pushed gender differences. Women could have the same opportunities as men but be expected to have different tastes, be subjected to different experiences growing up, etc. which could affect their choices in latter life.

I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural. (Well, I understand it if we assume they are being dishonest, so assuming that something is not biological allows them to claim that it can be changed to whatever they think is morally superior. The debate whether being gay is cultural is a good example.) If I am given a true freedom to choose, to decide according to my prefere…

For you, they now are your tastes, but if those tastes were acquired by nurture, they don't have to be your children's tastes.

Given some tastes lead to less power and riches in our current societal environment. If they are nurtured, it is logical for parents to want to nurture them to more lucrative alternatives.

If they are innate though, it's a waste of time to try and change them. So I feel it is definitly somewhat relevant to know.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#66

Post by ido »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #64
js8 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural. (Well, I understand it if we assume they are being dishonest, so assuming that something is not biological allows them to claim that it can be changed to whatever they think is morally superior. The debate whether being gay is cultural is a good example.) If I am given a true freedom to choose, to decide according to my prefere…

I think the idea is that your culture can enslave you in an idea of who you want to be, which isn't really yours , but rather your culture's. The idea seems to be that this identity has been forced on you, and isn't really yours . This brings up all kinds of nature-vs-nurture questions. It also has a nice recursive issue: Those who hold this view (that you should be free to choose your identity, without your culture…

yeah, for example 100+ years ago (or today in conservative environment) there were/are probably a lot of gay people who genuinely believe they are not and suffer their whole live, not even cause they are afraid to "come out" but cause they don't even accept themselves.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#67

Post by koonsolo »

jernfrost wrote: post #52

I am highly sceptical to this study. Does anyone have a list of what they measured as differences and how they did it? The reason I am a sceptic is because as a Scandinavian I notice easily how much more macho men are in less gender equal societies and how much more feminine the women are. I don’t think it is an accident that the world’s top female boxer is Norwegian rather than say Italian. I do there is something t…

> The reason I am a sceptic is because as a Scandinavian I notice easily how much more macho men are in less gender equal societies and how much more feminine the women are.

I think it depends on what you're looking at. It is indeed true what you say. But if you look at % of women in tech, less gender equal societies will have relative more female programmers.

This is from my own experience as a Belgian married to a Slovakian, and working in tech with externals in Ukraine and other countries.

It is true that middle and eastern Europe have a more traditional gender division, and I found this article that shows my point: http://blog.honeypot.io/women-in-tech-germany/. Netherlands has the least % of women in tech, but I can tell you they don't have a traditional gender role division (just as in Belgium).

So to get back to your first point, I think feminine women don't necessarily avoid working in tech, while more emancipated women do. It seems counter intuitive, but it definitely points in that direction.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#68

Post by daenz »

jernfrost wrote: post #52

I am highly sceptical to this study. Does anyone have a list of what they measured as differences and how they did it? The reason I am a sceptic is because as a Scandinavian I notice easily how much more macho men are in less gender equal societies and how much more feminine the women are. I don’t think it is an accident that the world’s top female boxer is Norwegian rather than say Italian. I do there is something t…

>The reason I am a sceptic is because as a Scandinavian I notice easily how much more macho men are in less gender equal societies and how much more feminine the women are.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're making an argument against a study that ranged over 80,000 individuals and 76 countries by using your own personal anecdotes of people you've met. Can we agree that the study takes into account far more people and controls for far more variables than what you've personally experienced?

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#69

Post by watwut »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #55
skookumchuck wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> expectation is sometimes that women dont swear etc. FWIW, a woman swearing definitely lowers her attractiveness, at least to me, by quite a bit.

For another data point: I'm an American woman. I swear like a sailor. Sadly, this has failed to be man-repellent. If only! My life would be vastly simpler if my foul mouth just got me left the hell alone by men. Also, everything I have read and experienced suggests that other women are a huge source of social pressure on female behavior, possibly far more than male sexual predilections. An actress once said "I dress…

I did not mean to imply that no American women swear. But, I never expected that swearing would be man-repellent nor was told anything of the sort.

> Also, everything I have read and experienced suggests that other women are a huge source of social pressure on female behavior, possibly far more than male sexual predilections.

It is kind of interesting that whenever general "society expects women x" many many people translate it into "men expects women x". My observation is that men are bigger on putting social pressure on other men and women on other women. Or more generally, people tend to be much bigger on being upset about breaking rules they consider themselves being bound up to.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#70

Post by js8 »

Jweb_Guru wrote: post #51
js8 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural. (Well, I understand it if we assume they are being dishonest, so assuming that something is not biological allows them to claim that it can be changed to whatever they think is morally superior. The debate whether being gay is cultural is a good example.) If I am given a true freedom to choose, to decide according to my prefere…

Because in one case, things "must" be this way and there is no reason for introspection--given exactly equal opportunities, both groups would choose the same thing they are already choosing. In the other, that's not the case at all, and it may be necessary to (for example) pass legal reforms in an effort to make sure that both groups actually are free to choose.

I am not really sure what you're trying to say. Can you give an example, perhaps? In particular, can you give an illustrative example which explains the difference between "free to choose" and "actually free to choose"?
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