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You’re Not Managing a Team of Software Engineers, You’re Managing Writers

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Re: You’re Not Managing a Team of Software Engineers, You’re Managing Writers

#41

Post by walshemj »

21 wrote: post #5
protomyth wrote: post #2

I do wonder how a TV show runner of some experience would handle a software production. There are a lot of moving parts that are not unlike what they deal with.

There is no technical debt in TV production. That alone changes many things. You don't need to care how you arrived at the result or how "maintainable" it is.

There is in production you start out with x pages of script and have 7 days to shoot it.

Listen to and commentary with directors and actors they will often refer to getting the day done i.e. they shot the required number of pages and having to cut stuff or not be able to do some cool shot they wanted.

Re: You’re Not Managing a Team of Software Engineers, You’re Managing Writers

#42

Post by lsc »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #26
slededit wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Status normally follows money (with enough gestation time). For the simple reason to get money you need to convince someone who already has it to give it to you. The inverse is also true, while a Noble title will get you a good spot at a traditional restaurant in London - for the most part nobody cares now that they don't employ half the village.

It seems to be reversed or less related in software. As programmers went from curiosity to wizards (high-status), their salaries went up, but these days coders are dime a dozen, but the salaries are still high due to what seems to be a combination of adtech boom and demand still outpacing supply. Anecdotal, but the way I sampled the status question is this: 15 years ago, when I told someone I can code, I was seen as…

You and I take the same situation and see it very differently.

My impression is that most people don't see intelligence as a good thing; not socially, at least.

15 or 20 years ago, if I said I was a programmer outside of my chosen peer group, people were more likely to respond like I was someone not worth associating with socially.

Now, people almost treat it like any other high earning professional. My impression was that then, it was only a job you went into if you didn't have opportunities in business or law or whatever. Now? it's on the standard path to both of those, and catching up (but still not there) on renumeration.

My impression is that a lot of the people who came into the industry after me were the sorts who would have gone into business or law in the '90s. This makes me seem a lot more socially normal than I was when I was younger.

Re: You’re Not Managing a Team of Software Engineers, You’re Managing Writers

#43

Post by abduhl »

lovich wrote: post #37
shanghaiaway wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software developers cannot sit down and design a new type of spacecraft engine.

That metaphor seemed like it was trying to show equivalent complexity, not that the jobs were interchangeable. Engineers on a spacecraft needing to know that at a certain temperature a material contracts which changes the friction coefficient it has and increases the heat generated until two moving parts melt, seems to have the same equivalence as knowing that at a certain rate of incoming messages your cache technol…

Thermal contraction would typically not change a particular part/material’s coefficient of friction but rather would potentially decreasing acting normal force. Friction is reduced because contact decreases not because some material characteristic changes.

Pedantic maybe, but it does reiterate the point that a software dev couldn’t design a spacecraft.

Re: You’re Not Managing a Team of Software Engineers, You’re Managing Writers

#44

Post by ilaksh »

abduhl wrote: post #43
lovich wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That metaphor seemed like it was trying to show equivalent complexity, not that the jobs were interchangeable. Engineers on a spacecraft needing to know that at a certain temperature a material contracts which changes the friction coefficient it has and increases the heat generated until two moving parts melt, seems to have the same equivalence as knowing that at a certain rate of incoming messages your cache technol…

Thermal contraction would typically not change a particular part/material’s coefficient of friction but rather would potentially decreasing acting normal force. Friction is reduced because contact decreases not because some material characteristic changes. Pedantic maybe, but it does reiterate the point that a software dev couldn’t design a spacecraft.

But that has nothing to do with what I was saying. I was saying that engineering is different from writing. There is no reasonable interpretation of what I wrote that is saying that different types of engineers could do each other's jobs.

So the entire thread is unreasonable.

Re: You’re Not Managing a Team of Software Engineers, You’re Managing Writers

#45

Post by millisecond »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #33

I prefer to think of them as carpenters. Every carpentry job requires solving a lot of problems every day, and using a variety of skills. But carpenters don't think of themselves as divas or creatives. In most cases, it's not nearly so romantic. There are objectives, roadmaps, client needs: it's just a job. Put on your hard hat, get your morning coffee and do it.

In former times, what we consider the trades were also romanticized. The masons and all that. I expect software to follow the same path and at an accelerated rate but that still gives us a while before we‘re fully normalized.

Re: You’re Not Managing a Team of Software Engineers, You’re Managing Writers

#46

Post by kbenson »

thinkingkong wrote: post #3

No youre managing a team of software engineers, one skill they have is writing. The product isnt the text. The product is the entire system designed to keep the text alive, functional, reasonably error free all in a relatively unpredictable environment. We definitely need to keep considering how other professions manage the unpredictable nature of their work so we can learn. Im just not sure this narrative suits that…

> No youre managing a team of software engineers, one skill they have is writing. ... The product isnt the text. The product is the entire system designed to keep the text alive, functional, reasonably error free all in a relatively unpredictable environment.

So, are writers just people that produce text? I think of them as people that produce systems that are explained and interacted with through text. The product of an author isn't text, it's a a story. The product of a technical writer isn't text, it's distilled knowledge. Text is the medium. I see a lot of parallels with software development.

Re: You’re Not Managing a Team of Software Engineers, You’re Managing Writers

#47

Post by darkerside »

ilovecaching wrote: post #28
poof131 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is the architecture is intertwined with the product is intertwined with the people. Believing that these things can easily be broken apart is an illusion. It’s how product believes one thing and engineers believe another, resulting in quick hacks, missed deadlines, and a mediocre product, if it’s released at all. Meanwhile the manager is a “people person”. Teams need leadership, not three leaders. Dev man…

> Believing that these things can easily be broken apart is an illusion. It works really well were I work. It's led to an extremely bottom up culture were engineers want to stay forever, because they feel like management isn't getting in their way or compromising technical decisions. > Teams need leadership, not three leaders. I'm not advocating for shared responsibility. What I'm advocating for is separating respons…

I'm sure it works well in terms of making the engineers happy because it sounds like the inmates are running the asylum. You're right that managers should be dictating the what and not the how, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't understand the "how" their report has chosen.

Re: You’re Not Managing a Team of Software Engineers, You’re Managing Writers

#48

Post by teunispeters »

I have found that a lot of the skills to do with writing effectively, professionally and reliably also apply to writing (and maintaining) software. It's not to say they're the same discipline, but they're closer than - say - electronics engineering.

But then a lot of disciplines are also assisted by having more writing skills as well.

Re: You’re Not Managing a Team of Software Engineers, You’re Managing Writers

#49

Post by 0x445442 »

kbenson wrote: post #46
thinkingkong wrote: post #3

No youre managing a team of software engineers, one skill they have is writing. The product isnt the text. The product is the entire system designed to keep the text alive, functional, reasonably error free all in a relatively unpredictable environment. We definitely need to keep considering how other professions manage the unpredictable nature of their work so we can learn. Im just not sure this narrative suits that…

> No youre managing a team of software engineers, one skill they have is writing. ... The product isnt the text. The product is the entire system designed to keep the text alive, functional, reasonably error free all in a relatively unpredictable environment. So, are writers just people that produce text? I think of them as people that produce systems that are explained and interacted with through text. The product o…

> I see a lot of parallels with software development.

A well written story can be open to many interpretations, well written software... not so much.

However, I can see some similarities in the mechanics if I squint hard enough.

Re: You’re Not Managing a Team of Software Engineers, You’re Managing Writers

#50

Post by 0x445442 »

Publisher(9am): Time for the morning scrum...

Author: Yesterday I worked on a few paragraphs where the antagonist was just about ready to reveal to the protagonist his knowledge of the protagonist's long lost brother. But I'm blocked on the historical research about Vietnam POW camps. Hopefully, if my research assistant can run that down soon I can move that paragraph from the unblocked column back to in progress. In the mean time I'm pulling in the foot chase scene "story" but at this time I think both these "stories" will carry over to next sprint.

Publisher: Hmmm, that's going to negatively affect your velocity.

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