Live data from Hacker News

Academia is a cult?

washingtonpost.com

111–120 of 135 posts

Re: Academia is a cult?

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science and math are as unemployable as the humanities. When people use "STEM" in this way they really only mean engineering.

I've seen math / physics majors make an easy transition into software development. I bet that is much easier to pull off than switching to programming from say, sociology.

Is this a regional thing? I've had interviewers inquire perplexedly from across the table as to why in the world someone with a mathematics degree was seeking a software development job.

Do employers in some parts really salivate over green math/phys grads with not so much as a github profile? Or do these anecdata leave off some key arc to the story where the grad does something substantial to bridge the gap between said major and software dev?

Re: Academia is a cult?

#112

Something that David Graeber said that opened my eyes. Until the 1970s or so, Universities were actually a guild for academics geared towards the production of knowledge. They had self rules, titles, apprenticeship systems, and to some degree the backing and protection of the state. Plus like a true medieval guild, they were run by the masters of the guild itself. Sure, they did not call themselves guilds, but in for…

exactly why is left as an exercise for the reader.

Because for a long time politicians in all western countries have been pushing the idea that attending university shouldn't be a rare or elite thing, that instead nearly everyone should go to university and get a degree. Scaling up changes things fundamentally. Numbers of students graduating with degrees has been showing a clear exponential growth curve over the last 100 years, see page 14 here for the UK:

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN042...

The explosion in size and funding levels of the university system that accompanied this growth has radically changed society in many subtle ways I suspect we're still struggling to understand.

Why did politicians do this? We must speculate. The explanations given at the time were somewhat dubious and tended to revolve around "the knowledge economy" (at least in the UK). Tony Blair was big into this around the turn of the millennium - the idea that the rise of China meant western countries couldn't compete anymore in traditional labour intensive industries and would have to move on to "knowledge work", which they then assumed meant needing a degree. Quite why China would be unable to educate its workforce to the same level, or why labour costs would not eventually rise in China to western levels, was left unexplored.

I personally suspect there was another agenda at work. From the mid 1990s to early 2000s, the USA and Europe were dominated by left wing parties (arguably Europe still is). People who spend more time in the university system tend to get more socialist in general. The correlation between increasing student populations and increasing future left wing voters would be hard for any political strategist to ignore.

That leaves the question of why university tends to make people more left wing. Leftist academics themselves tend to explain it as "smart people agree with left-wing policies" and leave it at that. But there are lots of smart people who don't, so that explanation seems lacking. However that's a topic for another time.

Re: Academia is a cult?

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be your theory ?

Hah, I thought it would be funny to add that "left as an exercise to the reader" bit, a habit from my Math days. Two things. First, reading, writing, and arithmetic are no longer college level skills. That combined with computers means that the bar for government clerical work is much, much lower. The result is that in the 1920s a Philosophy grad would be extremely useful to a county government because of their gener…

Your last and second-to-last paragraphs aren't entirely congruous are they?

Firstly you argue that "the right" is responsible for villifying government action, i.e. the population at large were basically static in their views until "the right" came along.

But then you say that the same era was kinda crazy and academics in particular (absolutely not a bastion of the right) came out looking extreme.

I'm not sure where you're based in the world, but that description seems accurate for the UK, perhaps the USA but my knowledge of 1970s era America is not so hot.

Rather than "the right" winning some sort of struggle, perhaps the population came to be suspicious of government naturally as a result of observing the craziness of those times. After all it would be strange if times could be crazy and government employees (as all academics are) could look kinda extreme, and that not affect people's views on a large scale.

Re: Academia is a cult?

#114
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you want to teach kids music that they actually enjoy and that will be more applicable to this generation, focus on pop music, rap music, hip hop, any popular music genre. Hip hop and R&B are the most popular genres of music in the US [1], classical music and jazz are the least popular genres of music [2]. Why are we still teaching classical and jazz over genres more popular, enjoyable, and accessible? It is…

Why are we still teaching assemby and C over development languages more popular, enjoyable, and accessible? It is not a good career path, it is not popular with kids or with the masses, and it is a lot more expensive than any other genre of software development.

Well, mostly we don't teach kids assembly ...

Music is frequently taught at schools but not pushed as a career choice, so I'm not sure that the original complaint holds (at least not everywhere). Almost all children where I grew up studied music in some form at school and virtually none took it as a career, those who did were amply warned about the risks. This was considered unremarkable.

Re: Academia is a cult?

#115
post #107
post #15

In my experience there are multiple cutls within academia and they operate at different levels. In finance, for example, there is a cult of "efficient market hypothesis" and another cult of "behavioral finance". The two groups don't appreciate each other much although publicly they love to say how much they respect their colleagues from the other group.

By that measure, all of human society is a cult.

That's a strange statement. So as a human society who do we all hate collectively in secret but claim to love openly? My point is that the academia as a whole is not a cult but there are cults within academia.

Also that's not the only "measure" by which one can claim existence of cults within academia but it's still something you don't want in the research community. Numerous times I have heard statements like "this paper will never get past XYZ because XYZ doesn't like Thaler/Kahneman/[any behavioral researcher here]". That should never be acceptable in research that's claimed to be scientific. Yet, it's common in academia.

Re: Academia is a cult?

#117

Something that David Graeber said that opened my eyes. Until the 1970s or so, Universities were actually a guild for academics geared towards the production of knowledge. They had self rules, titles, apprenticeship systems, and to some degree the backing and protection of the state. Plus like a true medieval guild, they were run by the masters of the guild itself. Sure, they did not call themselves guilds, but in for…

"... to replace the dying batch, ..." I would speculate that longer lifespans may well have a lot to do with at least some of the shifts.

> "... to replace the dying batch, ..."

> I would speculate that longer lifespans may well have a lot to do with at least some of the shifts.

Longer lifespan only indirectly implies higher retirement age.

Re: Academia is a cult?

#118
post #89

As a counter to this article I found my time as a grad student exceedingly productive and gave me great faith in the scientific institution. I definitely believe academics are underpaid; when most of the people in my department could have easy made 500k doing ML in the valley, they were making less than 100k as post docs or 30k as grad students. Otherwise my advisors were always incredibly proud of their students, pa…

I see this coming up on HN from time to time: happy current or recent CS grad student implicitly generalizing their experience to academia at large. The thing to keep in mind is that CS is a rare exception: it's relatively well funded and there is real demand for it from outside academia (the two things are not unrelated, of course). ML in particular is often said to have a "brain drain" problem. So obviously you can…

I wasn't a CS student I was a bioinformatics student in the health sciences department.

Re: Academia is a cult?

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah, I thought it would be funny to add that "left as an exercise to the reader" bit, a habit from my Math days. Two things. First, reading, writing, and arithmetic are no longer college level skills. That combined with computers means that the bar for government clerical work is much, much lower. The result is that in the 1920s a Philosophy grad would be extremely useful to a county government because of their gener…

Your last and second-to-last paragraphs aren't entirely congruous are they? Firstly you argue that "the right" is responsible for villifying government action, i.e. the population at large were basically static in their views until "the right" came along. But then you say that the same era was kinda crazy and academics in particular (absolutely not a bastion of the right) came out looking extreme. I'm not sure where…

I should’ve specified, I live in America. I also did not live to see the 1970s in person, so my final paragraph should be taken with more salt than the preceding ones.

> Firstly you argue that "the right" is responsible for villifying government action, i.e. the population at large were basically static in their views until "the right" came along.

To be fair, “the right” is a fairly large section of the population. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that in general Americans are much more skeptical of the utility of government than they were 50 years ago.

I think your last paragraph is plausible, but it’s not my favored explanation.

For me, I think the decline in public opinion towards government programs started with racial integration. Around that time a surprisingly large chunk of white people appear to have willingly degraded their public institutions to avoid having to share with black people, sometimes going as far as literally filling recently integrated pools with concrete rather than share. You also see private Christian schools pop up with the explicit goal of being segregated.

Fun fact, organized evangelical involvement in right wing politics began with segregation. It’s only after the association with segregation became toxic did they pivot to abortion and homosexuality as their bête noire. They’ve tried their best to downplay this though, because it’s kind of an ugly truth.

Within this framework, the anti-government anti-public institution movement got rolling in the 1960s, and started to get a large political head by the 1970s and 1980s. The political turmoil within that period on the left in universities was a response and symptom of that anti-government swing, not a cause of it.

It is for certain possible that certain antics by academia during that time period came across as unpalatable to moderates, undermining their position. I just don’t think it was the cause.

Re: Academia is a cult?

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sciences haven't done any better at quality control than the humanities. See: Bogdanov affair, "Who's Afraid of Peer Review?", etc.

Not really comparable at all. The "Social Text" affair was a major deal because "Social Text" was a major venue of postmodernism at the time, and it was a major cause of the fall of postmodernism in academia. Nobody was "fooled" by the Bogdanovs -- they were French TV personalities who managed to get a couple of bogus papers published in extremely low impact journals that hardly anyone read. Similarly with "Who's Afr…

> The "Social Text" affair was a major deal because "Social Text" was a major venue of postmodernism at the time

Social Text was in fact a pretty niche venue and it was not even peer reviewed. Yes, its contents were risible and easy to lampoon, but Sokal’s feat wasn’t the crushing blow on the modern humanities that it is often presented as.

Post reply on HN