Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

easydns.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

351–360 of 473 posts

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#351

Post by tptacek »

logifail wrote: post #339
evrydayhustling wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No argument, and it wasn't meant to sound simple -- just depends on how deeply you are aligned with the goals of the platform. I agree from painful experience that platforms can be capricious and even disingenuous. But that's also part of how they adapt to a changing world and business. Still boils down to: nobody said it would be easy (to get others' attention).

"We're shuttering our API" (which kills your business model) is very concerning if you're the business that's just been torpedoed. "We don't want your sort on our platform because reasons" ought to be concerning at a much wider level (and not just to the sort that apparently aren't wanted on the platform).

People keep saying this "ought to be concerning". What I see are mainstream commercial conveniences refusing to be complicit in spreading bigoted messages that have gotten people killed. Why am I meant to be surprised by that? If I ran a hosting provider I sure as shit wouldn't let that happen either.

We can all think of things we would ban if we ran hosting providers. We all know there's a line. Why are we pretending there isn't?

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#352

Post by mcguire »

logifail wrote: post #337
joshuamorton wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But when you can enough of them pointing in the same direction, it creates the chilling effect-- a business that's technically legal but can't get the services they need. It basically creates am unspoken private regulation well beyond the actual law of the state. Yes, but this is how the free market works. That my $.25 artisanal dog cupcake business can't get the services it needs at the price I can afford doesn't…

>> That my $.25 artisanal dog cupcake business can't get the services it needs at the price I can afford doesn't raise complaints. If you can't get services you need at any price isn't that when competition authorities [ought to] start investigating?

So, once again, "Are you willing to compel Stripe by threat of force to keep processing credit cards for nazis?"

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#353

Post by tptacek »

Mirioron wrote: post #278
pjc50 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are already a large number of fights over this. And the solution is the same: complain and hope for the court of public opinion to go your way. E.g. breastfeeding on Facebook, lgbt content generally, the drone strike reporting app on iOS, sex work adverts after FOSTA etc. Then there's the illegal stuff like fraud websites, ddos control domains, and anything to do with copyright infringement. It's noticeable whi…

But gab isn't far right. As I understood it, it's just a Twitter alternative. It doesn't make it inherently left or right. Many people pointed towards lgbt content being taken down and said: "Look, you guys brought this on yourselves." The implication being that some vocal lgbt people were pushing for censorship of other people, but it ended up being used against themselves. I think the solution is to require platfor…

I'm sorry, this is just false. Gab is white supremacist Twitter. Its founder was kicked out of YC for harassing minorities. Its (verified) Twitter account has been repeatedly screenshot promoting white supremacist and anti-Semitic messages. Virtually all of Gab's users are either white supremacists or right-wing conspiracy theorists --- even the account that posts inspirational landscape photos turns out to be a white supremacist on Gab.

Gab very much wants you to believe they're just a Twitter alternative with no intrinsic slant (though they've been overt about being a home for nationalists in their own materials). But that's just a grift.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#354

Post by logifail »

tptacek wrote: post #351
logifail wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We're shuttering our API" (which kills your business model) is very concerning if you're the business that's just been torpedoed. "We don't want your sort on our platform because reasons" ought to be concerning at a much wider level (and not just to the sort that apparently aren't wanted on the platform).

People keep saying this "ought to be concerning". What I see are mainstream commercial conveniences refusing to be complicit in spreading bigoted messages that have gotten people killed. Why am I meant to be surprised by that? If I ran a hosting provider I sure as shit wouldn't let that happen either. We can all think of things we would ban if we ran hosting providers. We all know there's a line. Why are we pretendin…

>> spreading bigoted messages

"Bigoted messages"? Would that be content that's

* against the law

and/or

* against the upstream AUP/TOS

and/or

* "someone said something that offended someone else"

>> that have gotten people killed

Not wishing to pour more gasoline on the raging fire, but ... source?

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#355

Post by Pfhreak »

kakarot wrote: post #325
evrydayhustling wrote: post #152

Reading this article is like watching someone beat the ocean with a stick. What would it look like for an "anti-deplatforming" initiative to succeed? All ideas have equal access to all platforms? Just the big ones? The objective is so poorly formed, it's not even wrong. A platform's identity and ability to attract an audience are determined by the activities they accept / cultivate, not vice versa. Infowars wanted to…

> Gab would like to use Stripe or Paypal because they are trusted payment providers, but those networks felt they'd stop being trusted payment providers if they let Gab stay on. That's an extreme simplification that borders on deceptive. No one is going to stop using Paypal and Stripe because they support a platform. Maybe if they were processing payments for ISIS, but Alex Jones isn't ISIS. No, Paypal and Stripe wer…

> No one is going to stop using Paypal and Stripe because they support a platform.

This is objectively false. I would stop supporting a business based on who they support. I have done so many times. From web services to food services, and everything in between.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#356

Post by TheAceOfHearts »

CM30 wrote: post #315

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; online platforms needed to be treated like their offline equivalents. Why can an ISP not censor traffic but a web host can? Why can the utility company or a credit card processor not 'shut down' customers they disagree with while the likes of Cloudflare or PayPal or Stripe can? There's no logic behind this. No, you can't just say 'offline stuff has a monopoly', because it d…

Unfortunately, credit card processors can and do deny services to people with which they disagree. To give one example: you can't use any mainstream payment processors for anything related to pornography.

Also, on Android you can run alternative app stores without having to "jailbreak" the phone. One example of this is f-droid [0]. You just need to change a single configuration option to allow installing APKs from third-party sources. Fortnite is an example of a popular Android game which you have to download and install outside of the Play Store, presumably because they don't want to pay for the large cut that Google normally takes.

I think domain name registrars should probably be treated like utilities, although I'd have to think it through very carefully to consider any consequences.

I'm generally in agreement that platforms should be neutral, otherwise they should be treated as publishers and be forced to deal with the consequences. It sets a poor precedent when rules are not enforced evenly.

[0] https://f-droid.org/

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#357

Post by logifail »

mcguire wrote: post #352
logifail wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> That my $.25 artisanal dog cupcake business can't get the services it needs at the price I can afford doesn't raise complaints. If you can't get services you need at any price isn't that when competition authorities [ought to] start investigating?

So, once again, " Are you willing to compel Stripe by threat of force to keep processing credit cards for nazis? "

"Somebody someone else really doesn't like" != Nazi

When we start throwing that word around, along with describing groups as "far right" (or indeed "far left") when they've started getting more votes than the [previously] mainstream groupings, we appear have a problem with nomenclature.[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hessian_state_election,_2018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_state_election,_2018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_presidential_election,_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_legislative_election,...

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#358

Post by kakarot »

Pfhreak wrote: post #355
kakarot wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gab would like to use Stripe or Paypal because they are trusted payment providers, but those networks felt they'd stop being trusted payment providers if they let Gab stay on. That's an extreme simplification that borders on deceptive. No one is going to stop using Paypal and Stripe because they support a platform. Maybe if they were processing payments for ISIS, but Alex Jones isn't ISIS. No, Paypal and Stripe wer…

> No one is going to stop using Paypal and Stripe because they support a platform. This is objectively false. I would stop supporting a business based on who they support. I have done so many times. From web services to food services, and everything in between.

They're a payment processor. If you believe in a non-discriminatory economy, where anyone with a legal, useful service or skill should be able to collect payment for it, then you simply can't have this position.

Payment processors must follow the law like anyone else and have no obligation to process payments for illegal services, but we can't start mass boycotting them based on the clients they legally do business with. That's a huge incentive for discriminatory practices which are at the behest of the mob.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#359

Post by tptacek »

logifail wrote: post #354
tptacek wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People keep saying this "ought to be concerning". What I see are mainstream commercial conveniences refusing to be complicit in spreading bigoted messages that have gotten people killed. Why am I meant to be surprised by that? If I ran a hosting provider I sure as shit wouldn't let that happen either. We can all think of things we would ban if we ran hosting providers. We all know there's a line. Why are we pretendin…

>> spreading bigoted messages "Bigoted messages"? Would that be content that's * against the law and/or * against the upstream AUP/TOS and/or * "someone said something that offended someone else" >> that have gotten people killed Not wishing to pour more gasoline on the raging fire, but ... source?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#360

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

mcguire wrote: post #352
logifail wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> That my $.25 artisanal dog cupcake business can't get the services it needs at the price I can afford doesn't raise complaints. If you can't get services you need at any price isn't that when competition authorities [ought to] start investigating?

So, once again, " Are you willing to compel Stripe by threat of force to keep processing credit cards for nazis? "

In the 1950s, your question would've been "Are you willing to compel Stripe by threat of force to keep processing credit cards for leftists and commies?" You believe because your political faction has a little leverage currently that it will always remain that way; not so. If you legitimize deplatforming, it is a weapon that will someday be turned against you.

Given the unwelcome resurgence of the right worldwide, that day may come sooner than you think.

Post reply on HN