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A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

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Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#81
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Define intolerance That thing everyone except the intolerant seem to understand remarkably well, and the intolerant spend a lot of time quibbling over the definition of in a desperate attempt to derail their inclusion in it. Or, more seriously: treating other people as unwelcome or hated or less than human, for reasons other than being hateful and intolerant.

Yes. It is all very obvious. For example, suppose a marginalized group uses the hashtag #killallwhitemen to express the disempowerment they feel from the historical weight of white privilege. This, I think we can all agree, is an expression of righteous outrage through hyperbole, not intolerance. In fact, "white men" in this context does not refer to any person or group of people, rather a self-reenforcing system of…

> can be explained entirely by discrimination

I understand this is hyperbole, but this is the perfect case of how legitimate grievances are derailed by bad actors. Emphasis on the word "entirely".

We don't and can't think in absolutes as a society. Everyone and everything is imperfect to some degree. Women sometimes falsely accuse men of sexual assault. Police officers sometimes kill unarmed black men for good reason. The problem is that these sorts of arguments strip context entirely away—"sometimes" in each case is well under 10%. No one was talking about "entirely" in the first place, so this just morphs a discussion about equality into a much less serious one about human fallibility.

So, sure, those are issues, but let's focus on the 90% of the actual problem at hand. No one is saying sexism and racism are absolutely 100% responsible for everything. But they are extremely significant factors and, more importantly, factors entirely within our control and of our own making.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#82

Why is this article being flagged? From https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > If a story is spam or off-topic, flag it. This story is not spam, and it is not off-topic since it clearly relates to current news in technology.

People flag controversy because they want to avoid flame wars and this place devolving into political discussion constantly.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#83
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is a platform that let's you say anything uncensored intolerant? If your definition of "tolerance" is forced censorship, then I don't think you would do so well in Karl Popper's proposed society.

In actuality, Gab bans users for the same reason Twitter does. For instance, when Paul Nehlen tried to organize harassment of another white nationalist figure, Gab banned him. Part of Gab's sales pitch is that it's a refuge for people whose thoughts are somehow too dangerous for Twitter. But contrary to what Gab wants you to believe, Twitter doesn't ban white nationalists. Richard Spencer has a Twitter account. So do…

Gab allows much more open racism and spread of those ideas than Twitter does.

Really all this says to me is that Twitter should be doing more.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#84
post #81
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It is all very obvious. For example, suppose a marginalized group uses the hashtag #killallwhitemen to express the disempowerment they feel from the historical weight of white privilege. This, I think we can all agree, is an expression of righteous outrage through hyperbole, not intolerance. In fact, "white men" in this context does not refer to any person or group of people, rather a self-reenforcing system of…

> can be explained entirely by discrimination I understand this is hyperbole, but this is the perfect case of how legitimate grievances are derailed by bad actors. Emphasis on the word "entirely". We don't and can't think in absolutes as a society. Everyone and everything is imperfect to some degree. Women sometimes falsely accuse men of sexual assault. Police officers sometimes kill unarmed black men for good reason…

[deleted]

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#85

The problem with free speech on the Internet is that our human minds have not sufficiently evolved to even remotely begin to understand just how fundamentally the Internet changes our perception of our fellow humans. Dunbar's number shows that we're only able to keep track of a very small number of ongoing human relationships relative to the Internet-connected population of the planet, and at a societal level we're u…

> The problem with free speech on the Internet is that our human minds have not sufficiently evolved to even remotely begin to understand just how fundamentally the Internet changes our perception of our fellow humans. Dunbar's number shows that we're only able to keep track of a very small number of ongoing human relationships relative to the Internet-connected population of the planet, and at a societal level we're used to only hearing ideas from people around us, and those in published works or in mass media such as radio and television. Yet now anyone, literally anyone, can go online and proclaim whatever they want in certain online public spaces.

Another fundamental issue is that The News is all about reporting abberational events. When non-local awareness is ubiquitous (via the Internet and social media) literally any statistically improbable event can be reported upon anywhere and treated unconsciously as a statistical constant by its audience.

In other words, people in California get to hear all the improbable dirty laundry about Texas and vice-versa, but we don't get to see the banal, quotidian existence of these places that allows us to relate to them as fellow humans, fellow Americans, etc.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#86
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Define intolerance That thing everyone except the intolerant seem to understand remarkably well, and the intolerant spend a lot of time quibbling over the definition of in a desperate attempt to derail their inclusion in it. Or, more seriously: treating other people as unwelcome or hated or less than human, for reasons other than being hateful and intolerant.

Yes. It is all very obvious. For example, suppose a marginalized group uses the hashtag #killallwhitemen to express the disempowerment they feel from the historical weight of white privilege. This, I think we can all agree, is an expression of righteous outrage through hyperbole, not intolerance. In fact, "white men" in this context does not refer to any person or group of people, rather a self-reenforcing system of…

Instead lets look at a "science based" which relies on the bell curve and similar works and deals with race and IQ.

People make the argument all the time that society isn't racist and that the reasons for the problems in the Black community are that Black people are genetically dumber. That they are inferior. That slavery is a natural state and we should probably just go back to that.

Is that a fair argument that should be discussed or would you recognize that it's just trying to use science to justify the authors own racist beliefs? I mean, I can toss in citations for most of it. There has been many articles that make the same basic point, usually minus the slavery parts in this era.

Now you did mention that there could be other causes, but you did so in a throwaway manner. You didn't actually analyze them. You're also asking the wrong question, because "are women as interested?" is fair but it's not really relevant. Are interested women being held back? Is interest being discouraged among women? Is the community encouraging to women or is it hostile? Aren't those better questions?

Attempts to scientifically justify bigotry and oppression (slavery especially) have existed for well over a hundred years and have varying levels of being complete nonsense (e.g. phrenology). It's very popular among some of the most racist people in society to act entirely "reasonable" while using statements like the one you posted as excuses for their own hatred or biases. The statement you posted just looks like someone trying to justify their own conservative views women in the workplace. I don't think it would get you banned in most places. If you say, wrote a memo discussing it and it wound up going out to your entire company I think you would probably get fired (rightfully) for creating a horrible working environment for any women around you.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They both happened. It's an accurate description of the state of discourse.

No they didn't. In the two situations he is clearly alluding to 1) the person admitted it was hurtful and unacceptable and that they should not have said it, and the mainstream publisher said they would not have hired her without this understanding 2) the argument the person made before being fired was not simply that there is a non-zero amount of sexual dimorphism in humans, it was concretely that womens' neuroticis…

1) Splitting hairs. Swap it for Sarah Jeong if you like. 2) Could quite easily be a true statement, if a controversial and uncomfortable one.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#88

Why is this article being flagged? From https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > If a story is spam or off-topic, flag it. This story is not spam, and it is not off-topic since it clearly relates to current news in technology.

Even your question to ask why this is flagged is downvoted. I've been noticing this for awhile on Hackernews: no dissent from the narrative is permitted. What a joke.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#90
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone wanting the full quote from Popper's The Open Society: "Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. In this formulation,…

There is no paradox of tolerance if we're exclusive talking about the tolerance of speech. Even the most abhorrent words are still just words and do not inherently exclude those that disagree with them. /pol/ and Gab are filled with right wing extremists, but the platforms do tolerate left wing extremists as well. The paradox of tolerance only applies when talking about actions. A group that is actively excluding oth…

I posted this elsewhere in the thread, but it bears repeating here: there is plenty of speech (such as advocacy of violence) that, if we tolerate it, has a net negative impact on speech.

Put another way: why would I paint a target on my back by trying to debate people who actively advocate for my murder? I'm much more likely to shut up and stay safe.

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