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A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

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Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#41
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no paradox of tolerance if we're exclusive talking about the tolerance of speech. Even the most abhorrent words are still just words and do not inherently exclude those that disagree with them. /pol/ and Gab are filled with right wing extremists, but the platforms do tolerate left wing extremists as well. The paradox of tolerance only applies when talking about actions. A group that is actively excluding oth…

I think that people in these debates are less interested in whether "words" are ugly and more in political projects pushed by those words. When a guy in synagogue is shooting people, because he happen to believe that they are organizing immigrants to genocide whites, competitive left wing group trying to convince other guys does not make people in synagogue wake up from death. It does not cancel out. You can be simul…

The point is not that the extremism on one end cancels out extremism on the other. The point is, it is possible to tolerate both - there is no paradox of tolerance with respect to speech.

As to your second point, the suppression of speech also has dangerous consequences. Plenty of anti-Semitic thought is rooted in the belief of Jewish control of the media. Suppressing speech probably only serves to reinforce this view.

The reality is that intolerance of hateful speech rarely makes hate go away. Remember, high ranking Nazi leaders were imprisoned, and Völkischer Beobachter (a prominent Nazi publication) was repeatedly banned and had it's offices raided. It didn't stop the spread of Nationalist Socialism. Some historians believe this suppression only accelerated it's rise. It's like the Streisand effect on a political scale.

Aside from instances where the suppression of speech is nearly certain to avoid negative consequences (like specific threats, conspiracy to commit crimes, divulging official secrets or classified information) it is not wise to suppress it. And this doesn't even touch on people attempting to use accusations of hate speech as a political tool (e.g. the "blue lives matter" laws not-so-subtly aimed at suppression of BLM).

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#42
post #32

It's probably unrealistic to expect us to stop seeing threads about this (Gab's #1 objective at this point will be to make more noise and surely something "newsworthy" will happen with them sometime soonish). But it's worth noting that we've had several recent discussions about Gab stemming from the events that occurred after the mass shooting. Here, Jeftovic is arguing from faulty premises. Correcting those premises…

Jeftovic here. I actually wasn't aware of many things you cite above, having cursorily examined, then abandoned Gab I never followed their twitter feed, etc. Without having seen any of that myself, I wrote the article extending a certain benefit of the doubt, trying to look at it from a neutral (ostensibly) vendor vantagepoint.

I'm certainly not blaming you for not being up-to-date on the antics of the Gab team! That's not a reasonable ask of anybody.

It's also trickier to bring yourself up-to-date, because Gab deleted a bunch of their worst tweets after the shooting and their subsequent media martyrdom. They don't even have the courage of their own convictions. But there are screenshots of these tweets (all of which depict tweets I saw on Twitter myself), and you can find them on HN in the search bar (or save yourself some time and just take my word for it).

And again: I'm not telling you that the fact that Gab itself is openly white supremacist means you have to support their loss of access to FRAND terms for the Internet's most popular providers. I do, but I understand that reasonable people disagree on this.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#43

This is a good article that explores many of the angles involved. Deplatforming is a dangerous step for a free society, especially when so much power is accumulated in a few platforms* The big risk is this: when only a few entities funnel so much societal discourse or control our communication infrastructure or process payments, those entities making arbitrary decisions about who they serve has similar impacts and ri…

> Spare me the tired arguments that these private companies have a right to not serve customers at will. That seems like self-serving cherry-picking, when in other situations the same folks would be against granting freedom of association.

Some people's hypocrisy doesn't undermine the core principle of freedom of association. The more abusive the big players become, the more incentive there is for people to use alternatives. Getting the government involved will slow that process and, inevitably, have unforeseen negative consequences.

> And we should not patronize such businesses.

I agree, and that is the best solution.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#44
post #37
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Freedom of speech is a right provided by the constitution No, it is not. It explicitly is not. Freedom of speech is one right among many other unstated rights held in common by the people. The first amendment merely prohibits Congress from passing a law that restricts it. The wording is clear that this freedom is something that exists inherently beyond the scope of the Constitution, and is certainly not "provided" b…

The 9th Amendment does not mean that Twitter must allow your speech. In fact, at the time the 9th Amendment was drafted, it didn't even require the states to grant you a right to free expression; that right wasn't incorporated onto the states until Reconstruction. So, no, not so much.

> that right wasn't incorporated onto the states until Reconstruction.

Much later, actually; while the Supreme Court grounded incorporation in the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment, which was part of Reconstruction, the doctrine of incorporation was articulated and developed in the 20th Century, starting, IIRC, with Gitlow v. New York in 1925.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#45
In my other writings, I've touched on how these tech companies compromise their stability and reliability when they engage in witch-burning campaigns.

For example - once upon a time, I could trust the google search engine, g-mail and the chrome browser. I recommended them to other people, and utilized them myself. But now, I can't in good faith steer folks to any google property, because they run the risk of losing access to their data. Today it's fashionable to cut off GAB, what will the moral panic of tomorrow be?

Another example - I used Pay-pal weekly to make purchases and send money to people and causes I supported. But after PayPal began denying service based on what keeps the outrage mob mollified, I've closed my account and have been helping website operating on the dissident right to transition away from a system that might deny them service on a fit of whimsy. Paypal, like so many other platforms, has become too unreliable to be a single point of failure.

All of these institutions were, until the last few years, treated like utilities - which bolstered their reputation for reliability. But now, so many of these giant Near-Monopolies have decided to become overtly political, denying their services without any manner of due process or even a reasonable amount of notice to the people being cast off. This damages the brand reliability, and where once customers could rely on their Registrar, Host, or Payment Processor, they now must consider it imperative to have redundant systems - lest they risk having their service cut because they suddenly find themselves on the bad side of "the fashionable opinion" of the hour. (Goal-posts that move by the hour, and today's cleric of the faith can easily find themselves tomorrow heretic).

A high-trust business environment is required to maintain the sorts of business relationships a content creator enters into with a platform/host/registrar. The fact is, as it stands now, no content creator, business or group can trust these tech-corporations to maintain a stable relationship - or even adhere to a basic contract - in good faith. Once a company - like PayPal for instance - has proven itself unreliable, it has already done half the work of replacing itself.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#46
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure we're already here. Ignorant or evil folks won't become enlightened or good if they can't use the internet.

No, but they will be isolated, and an isolated person is powerless person.

They are not isolated from each other, they are just detached from those who don't what to hear them.

Imagine that you have a piece of rotting meat. It's unsightly and it stinks. So you hide it under the carpet. Now it's gone from view, and the smell is nearly gone. But it's still rotting down there, and at one moment you'll have to face what it will turn into.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#47
What's interested about Gab is that it wasn't content hosting on another platform (Facebook/Twitter). It was their own platform, that people wrote and built.

What if you run a Plemore/Mastodon server that has users with controversial content? Is it okay for Vultr or DigitalOcean or Amazon to just yank your account? Sure you can claim capitalism and find another provider, but we've seen here that finding another provider is hard and migration is expensive!

I wrote about this almost a year ago when it happened to The Daily Stormer and I still think it's more relevant today:

https://fightthefuture.org/article/the-new-era-of-corporate-...

Shutting down platforms just drives people to more extreme platforms. You can't just yell "decentralization" because then you could have providers pulling individual instances of federated ActivityPub/OStatus based software.

At some point we're going to need to address free speech online, because it's not like the real world. You can't just go to another news stand or buy your own printer. There are a limited of people that can host general purpose VMs at a reasonable price with a decent provisioning API.

The domain issue is the most troubling. I don't see any reason a registrar should be allowed to pull domain services from people. Right now it's just content some people don't like, but what if a business starts pulling domain registrar service for business they just don't like, and claim it has to do with hate?

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#48
Build their own platforms they shrieked...

So they did.

Then the people screaming cut their web-hosting, payment processors and tried to steal their domain name.

This has nothing to do with freedom of association, and is instead the blatant and open suppression of dissident speech.

How very... liberal...

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define intolerance. That's the whole problem. So being "intolerant of intolerance" is meaningless except as something that signals a different meaning - different lines, different behavior, different standards - to every listener.

> Define intolerance That thing everyone except the intolerant seem to understand remarkably well, and the intolerant spend a lot of time quibbling over the definition of in a desperate attempt to derail their inclusion in it. Or, more seriously: treating other people as unwelcome or hated or less than human, for reasons other than being hateful and intolerant.

The gospel according to Inquisitor Torquemada? The people seeking to hammer down on free speech look more and more like a religious cult by the day. Good grief.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#50
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that people in these debates are less interested in whether "words" are ugly and more in political projects pushed by those words. When a guy in synagogue is shooting people, because he happen to believe that they are organizing immigrants to genocide whites, competitive left wing group trying to convince other guys does not make people in synagogue wake up from death. It does not cancel out. You can be simul…

The point is not that the extremism on one end cancels out extremism on the other. The point is, it is possible to tolerate both - there is no paradox of tolerance with respect to speech. As to your second point, the suppression of speech also has dangerous consequences. Plenty of anti-Semitic thought is rooted in the belief of Jewish control of the media. Suppressing speech probably only serves to reinforce this vie…

You can tolerate both, unless you are killed or injured by someone convinced on those words. Or, less dramatically, unless your salary is lower, because words convinced them that your kind is to be treated with more suspicion. You can tolerate extremism as long as you are not the target of said extremism. When you are the target, you have no choice.

The believe in Jewish control of media is reinforced by people who push for that theory. Whether there is suppression of speech or not in addition to that is not all that much relevant. Given that those very same groups are the ones that historically did suppressed a lot of speech and their fans did not minded that, I don't think the point stands.

Nazi also got comparably lower sentences then radical communists or left wing for same offenses. Right wing in Germany was treated with more lenience then left wing in Germany during that period. Hitler could be sent to jail for long, till forgotten, but was not. He could be kept there and his jail could be less of holiday then it actually was. Nazi got plenty of support and benefit of doubt on all kinds of levels which along with fear of communism and wish to build a military imperium again played more role then office sacking. It is not like only Nazi were censored at the time or that specially strict rules were applied to them.

More like the opposite - they were seen as patriots that went just a bit too far.

Somehow, nazi openly trying to silence Jews (even before they got power) or democratic politicians did not caused Streissand effect making Jews or democrats more heard. I also remember that their opposition was targeted by Nazi strongly and successfully.

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