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Student-Loan Debt Is Crushing Millennials

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Re: Student-Loan Debt Is Crushing Millennials

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious why this is a hugely unpopular fact.

It's more the not-even-veiled misogyny than the statement about the relative worth of degrees that caused my down vote. Also, most/all of this generation are told that it doesn't matter what your degree is in, just that you get a degree. That idea combined with some generic distain for trades is what drives kids to college regardless of cost. Men are also taking out loans. We need to respect trades and respect that n…

Is it necessarily misogynistic, though?

At the population level, women’s degrees are worth less than men’s because women more often exit the job market to raise children. If someone wants to do that - and I 100% stand behind that being a valid and important decision, for either sex - then college debt would be a very poor financial decision.

I’m not convinced it’s a systemic problem, but it would be interesting to see default rates broken down by gender.

Re: Student-Loan Debt Is Crushing Millennials

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious why this is a hugely unpopular fact.

I think people are inferring that you believe women’s hould stay home and not use their degree to earn. Whatever your personal beliefs, a much larger proportion of women do exit the job market at or before the height of their earning potential to raise children. It’s not a moral judgement to say that this is could pose a problem.

The bigger problem that I see is that women are more likely to major in financially unrewarding fields.

Re: Student-Loan Debt Is Crushing Millennials

#93
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt they contributed, but this isn't like a coal company getting emissions restrictions relaxed. There's a pretty common world view that financial viability should not even be a concern in young people's choices of what field to pursue, and subscribers to that are what created this policy. Lenders benefit, but this is driven by what a large group of people want society to look like. Even if the government s…

I can’t think of a reason why the number of gender studies students would increase under a universal higher education system for qualified students. Europe does not appear to be overwhelmed by gender studies graduates. Given the sexual harassment problem at Google, Uber, etc perhaps it would be good for there to be an increase in gender studies. California has free higher education until Reagan became governor. It wo…

> I can’t think of a reason why the number of gender studies students would increase under a universal higher education system for qualified students.

It's fairly simple--if you incentivize people to do something, they are more likely to do it. If universities start offering degrees in Starcraft or beer brewing or marijuana cultivation, there will not be many students if the students are responsible for paying. If they have a free ride regardless of what they choose, more of them will choose them despite unfeasible economic prospects.

It's not absolutist, either--the easier you make it to pay (like by guaranteeing federal loans for lenders), the more you will see. Even if it does load them with a lot of debt. And that's what we've been seeing.

> Europe does not appear to be overwhelmed by gender studies graduates.

They don't need to be overwhelmed--just creating a lot more than the market demands. And gender studies is just one example, of course. The root problem is subsidizing and turning out graduates who are then unsuited for the market in which they intend to find work, and the lost opportunity cost of those who would have been more successful entering the workforce instead (and perhaps attending college later with a broadened perspective).

> Given the sexual harassment problem at Google, Uber, etc perhaps it would be good for there to be an increase in gender studies.

Maybe, but the market would provide those incentives. How many gender studies graduates do Google and Uber need? If they're not hiring, do gender studies graduates working a coffee shop help solve the problem?

> California has free higher education until Reagan became governor. It worked well then and provided it is only available to qualified students I don’t see why it can’t work now.

It depends on how you define "well," and any redistributive program can "work" well enough until it runs out of someone else's money.

Re: Student-Loan Debt Is Crushing Millennials

#94

The normalisation of lending is a huge issue in general. There's a pervasive idea that being able to actually afford things is abnormal. That everyone should just take a loan out for education. For a car. For a house. For a cellphone. Yes, there are benefits to being able to get things 'earlier' than otherwise would be possible. And if everything goes right, the situation a borrower is in at the end of a loan may be…

it’s very reasonable to take out a loan for an income producing asset (like education), as long as the expected return is greater than the cost of the loan. but those sensible loans have also normalized loans for non-income producing assets, and that’s where it’s better to be able to pay up-front (unless you get an interest rate below inflation or the fed rate).

get rid of banks, and make tuition a combination of % of income for x years, combined in with some kind of social good calculation, so charity type work can count more than what it pays.

Re: Student-Loan Debt Is Crushing Millennials

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people are inferring that you believe women’s hould stay home and not use their degree to earn. Whatever your personal beliefs, a much larger proportion of women do exit the job market at or before the height of their earning potential to raise children. It’s not a moral judgement to say that this is could pose a problem.

The bigger problem that I see is that women are more likely to major in financially unrewarding fields.

Can you support that?

Re: Student-Loan Debt Is Crushing Millennials

#96
post #3

Often times when student loans come up people blame exclusively the borrower. We should keep in mind that in a properly functioning lending market both the borrower and lender take on risk. The lender should not left out of the equation on who to blame. Both parties are at fault. But we don’t have a properly function student loan industry. Lenders assume very little risk in this market but they should not be absolved…

I think our public education system is also to blame. We push kids down academic paths too often and many of those paths do not lead to professions that can sustain 45-80k debt after graduation. Too much easy credit is available driving up the price. Degrees are not properly valued. Degrees in social work should not cost the same as a degree in STEM because they are not worth the same. More kids should be going into…

> Good careers that also pay through their apprenticeship programs and currently are looking for kids to train.

This isn't always viable either. I started in entry-level manufacturing and worked my way up to production control and IT specifically because even at the highest level of manufacturing I wasn't going to be satisfactorily compensated. I would have been working long overtime hours for a decade or two only to be replaced by CNC machines instead of ever hitting the bigtime anyway. If I hadn't swapped collars I was destined for a life of sub $50k hard labor with shitty insurance and constant threats of bodily injury. Reporting to a "boss" who probably made as much as the manager of McDonalds and drove a Rav-4. Yeah, that's real potential right there.

Re: Student-Loan Debt Is Crushing Millennials

#97
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t think of a reason why the number of gender studies students would increase under a universal higher education system for qualified students. Europe does not appear to be overwhelmed by gender studies graduates. Given the sexual harassment problem at Google, Uber, etc perhaps it would be good for there to be an increase in gender studies. California has free higher education until Reagan became governor. It wo…

> I can’t think of a reason why the number of gender studies students would increase under a universal higher education system for qualified students. It's fairly simple--if you incentivize people to do something, they are more likely to do it. If universities start offering degrees in Starcraft or beer brewing or marijuana cultivation, there will not be many students if the students are responsible for paying. If th…

Since Europe does not seem to have too many gender studies students and they have nearly free higher education it does not appear that the evidence supports your position of there being increasing gender studies students as a result of free higher education. It may be possible to avoid an onslaught of such people and still have free higher education!

I don't suppose that Google and Uber will hire increased numbers of gender studies students. Fortunately though the societal, cultural benefits of such studies are not limited to the hiring preferences of Google. Furthermore it is fortunate that gender studies (or other degrees you don't support/like/care for/or want to see an increase of) aren't limited to working for Google or coffee shops.

I see you have no argument against the claim that California's free higher educational system worked well prior to Reagan. We've had universal free k-12 education for quite some time and we haven't run out of someone else's money yet so I gather you agree with me that extending this system to higher education would not bankrupt us. It may not be the right thing to do but we both agree that running out of someone else's money is not valid argument against it.

Re: Student-Loan Debt Is Crushing Millennials

#98
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt they contributed, but this isn't like a coal company getting emissions restrictions relaxed. There's a pretty common world view that financial viability should not even be a concern in young people's choices of what field to pursue, and subscribers to that are what created this policy. Lenders benefit, but this is driven by what a large group of people want society to look like. Even if the government s…

I can’t think of a reason why the number of gender studies students would increase under a universal higher education system for qualified students. Europe does not appear to be overwhelmed by gender studies graduates. Given the sexual harassment problem at Google, Uber, etc perhaps it would be good for there to be an increase in gender studies. California has free higher education until Reagan became governor. It wo…

> Europe does not appear to be overwhelmed by gender studies graduates.

Europe filters which students are admitted college. Is this an unexpected result for the subset of high-performing students?

Re: Student-Loan Debt Is Crushing Millennials

#99
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can’t think of a reason why the number of gender studies students would increase under a universal higher education system for qualified students. It's fairly simple--if you incentivize people to do something, they are more likely to do it. If universities start offering degrees in Starcraft or beer brewing or marijuana cultivation, there will not be many students if the students are responsible for paying. If th…

Since Europe does not seem to have too many gender studies students and they have nearly free higher education it does not appear that the evidence supports your position of there being increasing gender studies students as a result of free higher education. It may be possible to avoid an onslaught of such people and still have free higher education! I don't suppose that Google and Uber will hire increased numbers of…

Thanks for the discussion. It's now much clearer why you feel lenders deserve more blame for the student loan crisis in the US.

Re: Student-Loan Debt Is Crushing Millennials

#100
post #46
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual problem is high tuition.

Yup. Which is partly because of near infinite free money that no one is really responsible for. Hindsight is 20/20, and not being American I don't have the whole history...but what I'm picturing with this situation is: "Omg, it costs $5000 to get a degree! That means only the rich have access to education and increase the gap between rich and poor! We need a solution!" "You can't just go giving education for free! Co…

> Im just used to government paid education

You are from Europe, right? And you have rigorious exams to sort out the folks who will get the government-paid education and who will not. And this is ok, since Europe is more or less homogenous. Hans goes to university and Peter and Mark and Bernard all go to work in mcdonalds instead. No outrage here, it was just a hard exam, and only Hans was able to pass.

Now guess what will happen in US if you don't provide free education for everyone, but require to pass a hard exam first. It's not that hard to imagine, really.

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