Live data from Hacker News

Tim Berners-Lee says tech giants may have to be split up

reuters.com

361–370 of 375 posts

Re: Tim Berners-Lee says tech giants may have to be split up

#361
post #340
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if this is one of those few genuine uses for a blockchain based system. Comments (tweets) would be posted on a very thin layer of technology, which would only support say: - comment id - comment text - datetime of comment - commenting user id - list of [upvoting/downvoting] user id - list of reply comment ids As you say, third parties could then come along and build whatever front-end they see fit. Don't wan…

But why blockchain?

Because the underlying message service wouldn't be controlled by any single entity. This would mean that once the code was out there, you could be confident that no-one would change the service when there was a change of CEO or new censorship laws brought in or something like that; we'd have a neutral piece of underlying infrastructure that anyone could use to build a robust discussion platform on top of.

Re: Tim Berners-Lee says tech giants may have to be split up

#362

They really don’t. They don’t have monopolies on anything and there is no high barrier to entry to compete, they are just really popular. Facebook is far more akin to Kim Kardashian than Ma Bell or Standard Oil. You don’t need Facebook or Instagram or Twitter or any of that other crap. In fact, it turns out if you stop using them nothing bad happens to you at all. I’m many cases your life is better and you actually e…

"and there is no high barrier to entry to compete" My gosh. Facebook and Google are printing billions - don't you think that there would be massive money pouring in to take a slice of that pie if it were possible? Google has a scale that makes them essentially unassailable. Even Microsoft can hardly make a dent. Facebook, a little different due to network externalizations. They are not like traditional monopolies, bu…

There is a difference between being popular and being a monopoly.

Re: Tim Berners-Lee says tech giants may have to be split up

#363
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Network effects are hard to tackle when there are established players. The easiest thing is to wait until Twitter and Facebook lose the coolness factor and the next generation is hungry for something else.

Network effects could maybe be fought via regulation. Force the companies to let others participate in the networks.

Via open APIs? I like the idea. But then it puts the burden of development/cost on the bigger existing network. If you want to go this way then we should force APIs for all web services, not just social networks.

Re: Tim Berners-Lee says tech giants may have to be split up

#364
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that people have an (almost) unalienable power, very strong, and pretty underused. It's the power of walking away. If you find an environment toxic, leave it, and ask your friends to leave it, too. Yes, you have to research alternatives first, and make compromises, at least temporarily. Lately this somehow worked for Facebook. I bet they are going to see that on their bottom line. So, if you dislike the outra…

This is the part that I don't understand. Facebook, in the grand scheme of things, is still an incredibly new development for people. Most users (at least those who abide by the age limit) have spent most of their lives not being on Facebook. What grand utility does Facebook provide that makes it so difficult to stop using it? I cancelled my Facebook account a few years ago and the only time I ever even thought about…

To most of my family in the Philippines, from children to elders, they only started using the internet heavily when Facebook was available (cell phones and decent data coverage were big enablers of that though).

Facebook provides clear utility to a society that has had no decent online method of replicating their group/communal way of sharing experiences before. Do they _need_ to share their experiences or communicate through Facebook? No, but it’s an obvious extension of what they’ve already been doing.

FWIW the issues I see with Facebook here in the west—fake news and divisive nonsense specifically—are exacerbated there, so definitely a double-edged sword.

Re: Tim Berners-Lee says tech giants may have to be split up

#365
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody says this before elections. Trump was going to 'drain the swamp' and Obama was going to take down k-street influence. Then they get into office, tip their hat, and turn their back until the next election when suddenly they're incredible again, or at least they promise they will be. Obama ended up creating a special executive chair to let a Monsanto VP take control of the FDA, tried to jam the corporate writ…

Does cynicism help solve the problem? There are also bunch of promises that Obama kept (and Trump). Focusing on some that he didn’t keep doesn’t change that. https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/

Indeed it does! We live in a democracy and we have the ability to elect literally nearly anybody we'd like for any office. And fewer Americans than ever strongly identify as either republican or democrat. Yet, somehow, republicans and democrats make up nearly 100% of all office holders at all levels of American government. Isn't this interesting?

The reason is tribalism, and more specifically politicians becoming extremely adept at driving and exploiting tribalism. Many of the issues held as cornerstones by both parties are ones that are relatively unimportant. The reason they are held as cornerstones is because they do an extremely good job of dividing people. The reason for the desire to divide is because it helps both establishment parties to maintain a grip on power.

How? In the most recent presidential election what percent of people do you think voted for Hillary thinking 'Yes, this person truly represents what I value most and will make a great president.' By contrast what percent voted for her because the alternative was simply unacceptable? And similarly for those that voted for Trump. By focusing all of their energy on dividing people it makes people ignore the failings of their preferred side and instead focus on the awfulness of their less preferred side. This, in turn, does a fantastic job of getting people to vote against their own interest. And, in turn, this also encourages both sides of the political spectrum to play up to their own villainy (from the other side's perspective).

By continuing to vote for the 'least awful' choice instead of the choice people actually want, this system will be perpetuated indefinitely.

---

Interestingly enough, I think the efforts made towards sharply dividing people started to happen around the early 90s. And something happened then that was probably not just a coincidence. Ross Perot, at one point, looked set to win the US presidential election. He was polling ahead of both Bush and Clinton. He ultimately ended up taking 18% of the vote and, at the minimum, working as a spoiler. Ross Perot was a complete outsider. And he got those tens of millions of votes running a straight forward platform that he advertised on public broadcasting and infomercials. All these fancy political campaigns, teams, and political strategery was was nearly upstaged by this [1] guy with some printed out graphs and plain speaking.

And so it looks like works on min-maxing elections went into overdrive since then. It just turns out that getting people ragingly mad at each other over inane issues turns out to be one of the best ways to keep getting elected. And so yes, I do think pointing out how both parties in the US are complete trash does help solve the problem. What we need is people to stop being so scared and tribal. Instead vote for whoever you think will do the best job, instead of trying to decide who's "electable" and will do the least awful job. Trump, if nothing else, should show that the notion of "electability" is a complete lie and tool to maintain power. Anybody is "electable", anybody is "presidential". Vote for who you want instead of kicking in that cognitive dissonance, pretending the future won't be exactly like the past, and voting for the exact same idiots over and over.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPIVI0CbCmg

Re: Tim Berners-Lee says tech giants may have to be split up

#366
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's not the network effect I'm thinking of. To wit: The value intrinsic in the relationships between your users ("The Network") - to the point that you want all users whether paying or not.

That would be just as important for a subscription based service. If your friends use the service, you're much more likely to continue using it and keep paying the monthly fee.

Yawn

Re: Tim Berners-Lee says tech giants may have to be split up

#367
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose tech companies were no longer legally allowed to use the network effect (i.e. they had to provide open-access to their public data via API). Then this would enable alternative front-ends on twitter. This would then enable me to filter messages by positivity, or whichever criteria I choose (e.g. non-Russian-bots, non-shills). This is turn would then change the whole ecosystem. It would remove the perverse ince…

I think that people have an (almost) unalienable power, very strong, and pretty underused. It's the power of walking away. If you find an environment toxic, leave it, and ask your friends to leave it, too. Yes, you have to research alternatives first, and make compromises, at least temporarily. Lately this somehow worked for Facebook. I bet they are going to see that on their bottom line. So, if you dislike the outra…

If you don't like smoking, you should quit. Sounds simple, but in reality it's very hard for a lot of people.

Facebook et al. are habit-forming, and have been designed to be so.

Re: Tim Berners-Lee says tech giants may have to be split up

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just had this same conversation with a colleague. The old internet was really the civilized wild west. All the idealogical virtue of sharing and learning was plentiful and you had to have some basic technical skill to contribute or be involved enough to learn how to do it. Now, any curmudgeon can post whatever brain farts pop out with a frequency that only rivals that of their actual mouths.

Exactly this. Before you could ignore the lone racist person in the neighborhood. Now, they can go online, create a forum and gather together... so much for the promise of connecting the world...

Maybe the nice thing about the old internet was that it felt distinct from the rest of life, instead of an integral part of it - or, frighteningly, much of the foundation. Bad things happened on the internet (or AOL, Prodigy, etc.) in 1994 but then I just signed off and went about my day. Also, it felt like something most people hadn't quite figured out yet and, well, of course it was going to attract eccentrics of all stripes - including some less savoury ones.

I loved the internet, and Prodigy, when I was a kid in the 90's and 12 year old me would be shocked to hear that sometimes I dream of going to a cabin with just a landline, radio, and desk for writing letters for a month.

Re: Tim Berners-Lee says tech giants may have to be split up

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In a perfect world, we would be able to de-platform those that incite violence against others (for any reason) Should we really do it for any reason? Are there not some groups of which a certain level of violence (enforced by the state) is good? I can think of many groups of people who engage in actions which we agree it is good to respond with some violence to enslave them in cages. Well, that is one interpretation…

There's nothing wrong with inciting or carrying out justified violence—which is to say, a violent response to similar violence practiced by others. Your examples of murder and theft, for example. A murderer cannot rationally object to being put to death; a thief cannot argue against being fined without self-contradiction. The problem is unjustified violence. And I agree with you that most proposals for new laws (incl…

The problems arises not in the easy to agree laws (murder, theft) or the easy to condemn laws (ban on homosexuality), but with the ones which are debatable on if responding with violence is justified. Many would say that violence against pot dealers isn't justified, but what about heroin dealers? What about opiate dealers? Pot dealers who sell to teens?

Re: Tim Berners-Lee says tech giants may have to be split up

#370
post #237

I wish it could be made more apparent to people that Twitter and FB are not mediums for communication, but mediums for marketing broadcasts. Everyone with a significant following (let's say 100,000) is selling something. Software, home goods, consultants with online courses, meme pages angling for a TV deal, something. Yes, you can still use it to communicate with a core group of people whose tweets you enjoy. You ca…

> Twitter and FB are not mediums for communication, but mediums for marketing broadcasts. Why not both? There are plenty of people having legitimate, personally meaningful conversations on both. There are plenty that use both for marketing. The two aren't mutually exclusive. > You can also do that on Slack, Discord, even phpBB forums ...except that people mostly don't . They seem better able to discover and maintain…

> They went into the market and they chose. Who are you to second-guess them?

The users are the ones second-guessing themselves. If all was fine and dandy on Twitter, there wouldn't be harassment mobs and people wouldn't be complaining.

Decisions are not set in stone forever and aren't made with perfect information. What seemed like a good choice then may be sub-optimal now that users understand some of the design decisions that led Twitter to gravitate towards a marketing broadcast platform.

Post reply on HN