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On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer Score

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Re: On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer Score

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that airlines still get the bulk of their revenue from economy class. The average margin may be higher per business/1st class ticket but the bulk of total sales and profit comes from economy. The airlines' discriminatory marketing actions are buffeted by disparate nature of their customer base (a group of strangers who'll typically never meet again after sharing a flight) as travellers don't have enough intere…

> Except that airlines still get the bulk of their revenue from economy class. That's exactly backwards from anything I've ever read about airline economics. Do you have any references to support? https://kottke.org/17/03/the-economics-of-airline-classes suggests that on a given BA LHR IAD flight, the 122 economy seats total about $107K, the 40 premium economy seats about $106K, the 48 business class seats about $322…

No references off head but I stumbled upon it while working on airline related project some years back. The key thing being proper cost accounting showed it wasn't lucrative as portrayed.

Citations on premium class margins don't account for the higher costs of servicing such customers (ground/airborne food and entertainment, lounges, transportation, exclusive services, etc).

While some may have a few planes with higher #s of premium seats, many fleets (especially N. American ones), are comprised of mainly economy class seats. This is obviously less true for newer airlines or those upgrading most/all of their fleets. The invention of more seating groups like premium economy (same cabin, almost no difference in service offered and cost to do so) has made one of the biggest differences to date.

Sales also extend to business and 1st class seats - this and frequent flier upgrades show that premium tickets are often sold at less than full markup.

Re: On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer Score

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: does this actually help you get what you're after faster? I've never been a call center agent, but I've worked closely enough with call centers to know that they are often divided up in to different skill sets. Even if the automated responses won't get you what you need (modern ones can do quite a lot!) and you really need to talk to a person, you still have to talk to the right person. (Or the right…

>Even if the automated responses won't get you what you need I honestly hate that this is a thing at all. If I'm calling customer service, it's because I've exhausted every other option _other than calling customer service_. I'm not here to have fun, I've got a problem than I unfortunately need a human to solve. Sitting through several minutes of "helpful" suggestions, options, and tips completely unrelated to why I…

I feel the same way as you, but the HN crowd is different in this sense from ordinary people.

Our first resort is a search engine and a FAQ page, and possibly making a forum post.

For many people, their first and only resort is to ask a person on the phone, no matter how factual or trivial the question is.

Re: On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer Score

#303

I find it hard to believe most call centres have sophisticated tracking systems when they can't even manage a basic "You are number X in the queue. The estimated wait time is X minutes." Or how about "If you would like us to call you back, press 1". I've had that from about 2 call centres in my life total (one was Google, can't remember the other). Fancy tracking linked to wait times? Please.

Newegg? They have the callback system, as well as estimated wait and # in line.

Re: On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer Score

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you aren't in the top tier, fly Southwest as much as you can. I do. All the same seats with minor differentiation possible. There are many reasons they have been the only airline to be profitable for decades, but having good service for everyone is definitelty one of the reasons.

Strongly disagree. Southwest is hugely overrated imo. It’s one of those companies that maybe used to be better or something, so they have a whole class of fans who are blind to how lame they currently are. I’m probably that way about Apple :) Not that any of the other major carriers is much better. But I don’t love the lining up and then hoping for a good seat, they’re often not the cheapest, and letting everyone che…

> letting everyone check two bags for “free” is a cost drag on everyone

Not necessarily. More checked bags -> fewer carry-ons -> faster boarding as people aren't trying to cram their bags into the overhead and giving up and gate-checking -> shorter turnaround time -> higher aircraft utilization, cheaper airport fees -> cheaper tickets

Re: On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer Score

#305
post #108
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tangent: Are there other people here who just refuse to sign up for any of these programs? I have family members who are super into frequent flyer programs, credit card points, etc, etc. But I don't like the cognitive load they introduce, and I don't like having to figure out how much I'm being manipulated in any given interaction. I get that I'm missing out on goodies, but they're paying for those goodies somehow, s…

Also: does anyone see these programs and think wow, this airline UX is so awful I want to show them my loyalty so that eventually they'll stop trying so hard to make me unhappy? I'm pretty convinced this all boils down to a sort of low-grade white collar corruption: people who travel a lot for business sometimes can get away with favoring one airline over another, where this decision costs the shareholders a little b…

Frequent business travel kind of sucks. A lot of employers are willing to look the other way as long as it keeps their people happy. Especially in fields like sales with high turnover.

Re: On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer Score

#306
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also: does anyone see these programs and think wow, this airline UX is so awful I want to show them my loyalty so that eventually they'll stop trying so hard to make me unhappy? I'm pretty convinced this all boils down to a sort of low-grade white collar corruption: people who travel a lot for business sometimes can get away with favoring one airline over another, where this decision costs the shareholders a little b…

>I'm pretty convinced this all boils down to a sort of low-grade white collar corruption: people who travel a lot for business sometimes can get away with favoring one airline over another, I suppose it depends on the business but at my Fortune 50 we're required to use "lowest logical airfare". You can force a choice of Southwest over United by choosing one airport over another, and there's enough wiggle room to let…

The person I knew with the most miles and status was a middling-level admissions counselor for a university.

Re: On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer Score

#307
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tangent: Are there other people here who just refuse to sign up for any of these programs? I have family members who are super into frequent flyer programs, credit card points, etc, etc. But I don't like the cognitive load they introduce, and I don't like having to figure out how much I'm being manipulated in any given interaction. I get that I'm missing out on goodies, but they're paying for those goodies somehow, s…

There's something about air travel that makes it a uniquely terrible experience and drives me to participate in these programs. There is nothing I do in my life regularly where I'm more restricted, or more closely related to a rigid caste system than air travel. Every time you take a flight, for somewhere between 3 and 20 hours, you're told exactly where to stand, where to sit, what you can and can't wear, what you c…

Southwest, JetBlue or Alaska.

But yeah, status, PreCheck, Clear, etc. are all "Can I remove this friction in my life?"

Re: On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer Score

#308
post #273
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tangent: Are there other people here who just refuse to sign up for any of these programs? I have family members who are super into frequent flyer programs, credit card points, etc, etc. But I don't like the cognitive load they introduce, and I don't like having to figure out how much I'm being manipulated in any given interaction. I get that I'm missing out on goodies, but they're paying for those goodies somehow, s…

I signed up for the BA frequent flyer program and "cognitive load" really didn't ring true for me. Basically, I add my frequent flier number to the booking form online and that's it. When I hit Bronze (it's a couple of long flights or so) I don't need to do anything, I just get to skip the queue at checkin and (airport depending) security. There's no sales, no emails, no upsell, my (travelling) life is just better af…

It's especially not cognitive-load building if you live at a hub (or a place with only one carrier).

Live in Pullman, WA? You're flying Alaska anyway. Salt Lake City, UT? Get yourself a Delta number.

The tricky places are where there are lots of competing carriers. San Francisco with it's...pseudo-hubness for a number of airlines, Washington DC, etc.

Re: On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer Score

#309
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tangent: Are there other people here who just refuse to sign up for any of these programs? I have family members who are super into frequent flyer programs, credit card points, etc, etc. But I don't like the cognitive load they introduce, and I don't like having to figure out how much I'm being manipulated in any given interaction. I get that I'm missing out on goodies, but they're paying for those goodies somehow, s…

Economics. If you only view flights as getting from point A to point B, then the rewards programs aren't worth it. For some people, there's more at stake than getting from point A to point B... eventually. Comfort and less time wasted are very valuable for the wealthy (in terms of $ they're willing to spend without monetary return, since it ends up being a smaller percentage of their disposable income). For business…

Yeah, traveling for business, it's about reducing cognitive load.

Re: On Hold for 45 Minutes? It Might Be Your Secret Customer Score

#310
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tangent: Are there other people here who just refuse to sign up for any of these programs? I have family members who are super into frequent flyer programs, credit card points, etc, etc. But I don't like the cognitive load they introduce, and I don't like having to figure out how much I'm being manipulated in any given interaction. I get that I'm missing out on goodies, but they're paying for those goodies somehow, s…

There's something about air travel that makes it a uniquely terrible experience and drives me to participate in these programs. There is nothing I do in my life regularly where I'm more restricted, or more closely related to a rigid caste system than air travel. Every time you take a flight, for somewhere between 3 and 20 hours, you're told exactly where to stand, where to sit, what you can and can't wear, what you c…

This makes sense, but my reaction is the exact opposite. If they're going to structure it to be shitty so I do what they want, then I'm for damned sure not going to do what they want.

One of my big life rules is "don't feed pigeons." I mean it metaphorically, of course. Pigeons are machines for turning food into pigeon shit and more pigeons, and I'm not a big fan of either. A clearer version is something like, "don't reward something creating a problem in a way that deepens the problem."

So you've persuaded me that I should never join one of these things.

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