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Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

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111–120 of 125 posts

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#111

Consider your question here > Is HN only about saying nice things about everything? This implies fault lies with HN. You make the assumption that you are right (despite your PS). A better question is: > I'd like to contribute; can anyone offer advice to improve my comments? Humility, and no assumption. Again, here: > I don't know maybe it's me, maybe I have too radical opinions on stuff. Again, this is conceited. It'…

Ok, you have a point, the thing that has annoyed me is that I got downvoted for comments that are not "ego talking". If I write something like " is a load of crap in my opinion" I don't mind getting downvoted, but a lof of times I get downvoted even when I am strict and technical, and again this won't bother me if people would supply a response. Having a "well formed" comment simply downvoted is equal to simply reply…

Keep in mind that it takes just one or two person to downvote you while there might be 400 or more readers who had nothing to complain about your comment. So it may not be as bad as it looks. Especially if the downvotes are because you just used three ??? Or !!11! Instead of one.

If it's frequent then there might be indeed a problem. Think about and try to understand what PG observed about your comments.

I also often get downvoted. Think of it as just a tool helping to sort comments, not to judge you. I benefit from it too to read the "best" comments first. But when i'm really interrested in the topic i read all comments, even if they are downvoted. I also sometime upvote downvoted comment when I think it was abusive because I know how it feels.

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a blunt, German family. Very straight forward, often crude. I am, as a result, one to speak my mind. Effective criticism is best delivered from a high position: hyperbole and mistakes like "my the way I" debase an otherwise salient point. A good insult is like a fine, dry wine; it is bitter and refined. You come across in your comment history as a dullard, enamored of his own ability to shout at crowds.

I'm picturing Dwight Schrute as I read this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_Schrute

I'm afraid that I have no understanding of that popular culture reference. Are you calling me a fascist?

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#114

I wrote about this on my own blog, and someone from Hacker News came and posted a highly critical comment about me. They concluded: "The reason you were downvoted and will continue to be downvoted is because you don’t discuss topics with any intellectual integrity." The comment was interesting since it was such a pure, mirror reflection of what the commenter was doing. For instance, they posted anonymously, whereas I…

I upvoted this because I think it's an interesting discussion despite the fact that I disagree. Let me ask you this: Can you think of any online discussion boards with better discussion than HN? The reason I ask is because my its nature I think Internet discourse always devolves into a garbage as a function of community size. Another way of putting it is that you can have a good Internet community as long as it doesn…

dasil003, you ask "Can you think of any online discussion boards with better discussion than HN?"

I often have better conversations when I meet up with friends at a coffeeshop. For me, Hacker News is in competition with all the other things I could be doing with my time, rather than merely being in competition with other online discussions. Hacker News may be the best place online for discussing concerns relevant to startups, but it still suffers from many of the problems that all online discussions suffer from, including anonymous posting. For me, the question is whether I should engage in any online conversation that isn't directly related to work. Is it worth the effort? Every minute that I spend discussing issues online is a minute that I'm not doing other things, such as discussing similar issues with close friends of mine in real life, or writing software, or responding to personal email, or exercising, or going to a museum, etc.

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#115

y'know a few downvotes are not the end of the world either. The most downvotes I've ever seen anyone get never exceeds 4. I've seen hundreds of upvotes for some submissions. So if you're worried about the karma, just post something interesting. Guaranteed you'll get your karma back AND still have the freedom to criticize something if you feel the need.

That's because the publicly displayed score for any comment bottoms out at -4 in order to prevent a "dogpile" effect. Every downvote still deducts karma, though it may not be publicized in the comment's score.

I am fully aware of that fact. Thanks anyway.

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#116
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No where did I bring communism or capitalism into the conversation. And, mind you, I am not critical of the anonymous poster on my blog - everyone has a right to be critical. But it did make me think twice about whether Hacker News is the right place for me to invest my time.

No where did I bring communism or capitalism into the conversation. Really? From http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1821175 I find: Do you feel that economies where the bulk of economic activity is organized via free actors engage in voluntary exchange tend to be more dynamic than economies where the government plays the major role in organizing economic activity? What are you talking about if not capitalism? Then y…

btilly, nowhere did I bring communism or capitalism into the conversation. It is interesting that you think I did. This is the where so many of these conversations break down: people use these words differently, and so, often a diverse group of people, not understanding each other's vocabulary, will end up talking past one another, each thinking that the other means something else.

You wrote:

"Which in effect boiled down to saying that it was possible that it could be easier to discourage gaming the system by providing bigger punishments for bad behavior than it is to do it by providing bigger incentives for not gaming the system."

Correct, which is I why I suggested that larger fines might be a reasonable option to look at. In the article, Stiglitz' points out that the fines that are now imposed are laughably small compared to the money that some of these people made in the financial deals discussed in the article. To my mind, the next obvious step is to increase the fines, till they offer a reasonable incentive not to engage in a particular activity. As I wrote before "I can think of a lot of incentives that might be put in place to help align the interests of those writing the mortgages and those who are receiving the mortgages". Larger fines for misrepresentation would be the most obvious incentive to try here.

I could go into some detail about the different ways that people have historically used the words "capitalism" and "communism." However, past a certain point, such writing becomes incredibly tedious. Strunk and White, in their book Elements Of Style, compare normal writing to legal writing. No one can write well, they say, who doubts the intelligence of their reader. Good writing depends on assuming good will on the part of ones readers. They contrast that to legal writing. When lawyers draw up a legal document, they assume the document will be read in bad faith. After all, if 2 parties still have good will between them, they rarely need to consult their written agreements. It's when all good will is gone that people pull out the contracts. Therefore legal documents need to be written with great redundancy and verbosity, to try to drive out any ambiguity and to try to cover every edge case.

Not mentioned in Strunk and White is the case where the reader bears no ill will to the writer, but through inexperience with the subject is unable to reach conclusions that the writer regards as obvious. For this latter kind of reader, a simplified kind of writing is sometimes required, and this kind of writing resembles the kind of writing you would do if you were assuming bad faith on the part of the reader - it is a kind of writing that tries to define everything, and drive out ambiguity. I often engage in this kind of writing when I'm trying to explain things to my customers.

This kind of writing can be compared to the kind of software that tries to take into account every edge case. We all know that, for non-trivial software, there is a substantial gap between the effort needed to get the software working for the simplest case, versus the effort needed to ensure that the same software takes into account every edge case that it might face. The first kind of coding tends to be fun, the second kind of coding tends to be tedious.

I'm willing to engage in that latter kind of writing for my job. Should I make that kind of effort on Hacker News? Such writing can be exhausting - it is often a verbose kind of writing, and, above all, it needs to be a very careful kind of writing. There are places where I recognize the importance of making such an effort - at work, and with certain friends when a subject is emotionally charged, and when I've undertaken some substantial responsibility. I find that I'm only able to write like that for maybe 5 or 6 hours a day - it takes too much out of me to focus at that level for much longer than that. Does it make sense for me to invest some of those hours on Hacker News?

To the extent that I can assume I'm being read in good faith, I can write with some shortcuts. That is the way I have conversations with friends. If I can't assume good faith, then I need to engage in much more careful style. As I said, this only seems worth it to me when the stakes are high.

You can, perhaps, understand my ambivalence? On a subject like the one involving the article about Stiglitz, yes, I could spend 2 hours putting together a careful essay explaining my views, how they formed, who I've read and how it influenced my thinking on the subject, and why I think an important aspect of the article is being overlooked. But am I being paid to to spend 2 hours that way? If not, I can probably spend those 2 hours more profitably elsewhere.

Thus, as I said, I'm ambivalent about continuing to participate on Hacker News.

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I upvoted this because I think it's an interesting discussion despite the fact that I disagree. Let me ask you this: Can you think of any online discussion boards with better discussion than HN? The reason I ask is because my its nature I think Internet discourse always devolves into a garbage as a function of community size. Another way of putting it is that you can have a good Internet community as long as it doesn…

dasil003, you ask "Can you think of any online discussion boards with better discussion than HN?" I often have better conversations when I meet up with friends at a coffeeshop. For me, Hacker News is in competition with all the other things I could be doing with my time, rather than merely being in competition with other online discussions. Hacker News may be the best place online for discussing concerns relevant to…

How is that response to my question? Obviously HN can not be anything but an online discussion forum, and it can only be judged on those merits. How you choose to spend your time is well beyond the scope of my consideration.

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#118
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree about the PG-worship or whatever you want to call it. I preferred to absent myself from here for a while after it got real bad (to the point of the first article commonly being a 2-3 year old essay that had bubbled to the top AGAIN), simply because I felt fundamentally outside of the norm here - I rarely agree with anything PG says in its entirety. Paul is a thoughtful enough person that I've never felt that…

I have no opinion on PG-worship one way or the other (probably because I'm new here) but I agree about the general "problem" that involves people who seem to downvote (or even flag) thoughtful comments just because they disagree. Sometimes, they not only downvote a comment they dislike, they apparently go to your profile and downvote everything(!) you wrote recently. Maybe it's a weakness of the implementation, or ma…

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't believe stuff should be down-voted just because it doesn't fit into the prevailing opinion, I'm just saying that I don't take it personally when it happens.

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#119
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No where did I bring communism or capitalism into the conversation. And, mind you, I am not critical of the anonymous poster on my blog - everyone has a right to be critical. But it did make me think twice about whether Hacker News is the right place for me to invest my time.

No where did I bring communism or capitalism into the conversation. Really? From http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1821175 I find: Do you feel that economies where the bulk of economic activity is organized via free actors engage in voluntary exchange tend to be more dynamic than economies where the government plays the major role in organizing economic activity? What are you talking about if not capitalism? Then y…

But again, I think the anonymous poster was well within their rights. Everyone has a right to complain, and I welcome criticism of any sort. But it does make me re-think where I invest my time.

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#120
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no opinion on PG-worship one way or the other (probably because I'm new here) but I agree about the general "problem" that involves people who seem to downvote (or even flag) thoughtful comments just because they disagree. Sometimes, they not only downvote a comment they dislike, they apparently go to your profile and downvote everything(!) you wrote recently. Maybe it's a weakness of the implementation, or ma…

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't believe stuff should be down-voted just because it doesn't fit into the prevailing opinion, I'm just saying that I don't take it personally when it happens.

Sure it's difficult to take this personally, considering pretty all of us are just semi-anonymous handles on a website and we don't know anything personal about our fellow users to begin with. I believe the perception that there is a problem here really comes from two sources: first, you almost never know why you are suddenly and utterly modded into a black hole. Second, there is this creeping suspicion that the actual purpose of the mod system is either not well defined enough or not properly agreed upon in the community.

This leads to cases where coherent and interesting comments are sometimes -4, which is exactly the rating that should be reserved for porn, spam and really gross trolling. At the same time, some users achieve consistently high ratings for comments that seem to be lacking in content, leading me as a new user to suspect that the system is either rigged in some way or at least very susceptible to ridiculous pile-on effects.

The good news is though that this doesn't happen often enough to be a serious problem (yet?).

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