Google staff walk out over women's treatment • Hacker News Board

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#311

Post by eqdw » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #138

rurban wrote: post #131

Sounds like pre-unionizing to me. Wonder where this will lead to...

Hopefully to more people in tech joining unions. Plenty of other well-paid professions are unionised (eg. doctors). For full disclosure I've been a member of Prospect, a non-affiliated union in the UK, for a few years. One of the advantages is free access to legal advice about employment issues.

Most tech offices (google included) already give all employees free access to legal resources. It's called an EAP (Employee Assistance Program)

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#312

Post by astura » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 7:17 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #307

astura wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there is no data to support the wage gap This is false. https://www.epi.org/publication/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap-a... >it's very unpopular to question it. Also false, it's very popular (and almost cliché) to dismiss it. >Christina Hoff Summers... has paid a huge price by actually investigating these issues. And what price would that be? She seems extremely successful. http://www.aei.org/scholar/christina-hoff-somm…

From your link: " $3.27 less per hour than men. The median hourly wage is $15.67 for women and $18.94 for men. The gender wage gap is a measure of what women are paid relative to men. It is commonly calculated by dividing women’s wages by men’s wages, and this ratio is often expressed as a percent, or in dollar terms. This tells us how much a woman is paid for each dollar paid to a man. This gender pay ratio is often…

Oh, FFS, c'mon.

There's over 12,800 words in the article and 67 citations. It includes sections such as "How do work experience, schedules, and motherhood affect the gender wage gap?", "How do education and job and occupational characteristics affect the gender wage gap?", "Does a woman’s race, age, or pay level affect the gender gap she experiences?", and "What role do 'unobservables' like discrimination and productivity play in the wage gap?" yet you choose to ignore all of it and argue against something from the introduction that's expanded upon further down.

You're arguing on bad faith here.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#313

Post by klagermkii » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 7:18 PM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #183

gedy wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of the hesitation is people fear kangaroo courts and termination without due process due to false accusations or exaggerations. Much as the extra legal stuff that goes on in college.

In other words, people here are more concerned with a phenomenon that is measurably rare relative to the downright epidemic that people are seeking to counteract. I think that says a lot about one's values.

What you have is an epidemic of powerful employees abusing their position to take advantage of junior employees.

What seems to be suggested to fight it are tools that would be extremely effective against other junior employees (even if the allegations are untrue), but only middlingly effective against the real problem of powerful employees.

That will understandably lead to push back from junior employees who fear abuse. Offer solutions which would primarily work against powerful employees and would be ineffective against other junior employees and I think there would be much more support.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#314

Post by sizzle » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 7:18 PM UTC

"A clear, uniform, globally inclusive process for reporting sexual misconduct safely and anonymously"

Can anyone help me understand the rationale behind the anonymous part, with respect to due process and how the framework for anonymous accusations can be abused by bad actors?

Edit- I have a question about the anonymous nature of reporting to HR, with respect to due process for the accuser and accused, maybe some of you can shed light on how you've seen it work in your experiences.

I've heard stories in the past, with details I'm not privy to, where coworkers were let go based on anonymous HR sexual misconduct allegations. I really hope that due process is involved for the accused and not just a "guilty until proven innocent" situation. What I mean is that evidence by the accuser is judged along the lines of probable cause that our police force uses to arrest or judges use to prosecute e.g. inappropriate advances caught on tape, unwanted email/text/chat messages in line with allegations, eye witness statements corroborated by fellow co-worker, etc.

There are a lot of introverted, socially awkward personality types in technical roles (on the spectrum?) with traits that can be perceived incorrectly, even negatively by neurotypical individuals and I fear the power of anonymous, "guilty until proven innocent" allegations standard that HR might start using to police the accused and trample on their right to due process since employment is at-will and you can be terminated for any reason, at any time, but in this situation you are ineligible for unemployment if it's recorded as misconduct.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#315

Post by solipsism » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 7:18 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #308

solipsism wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Words are cheap.

So is grandstanding by people with well paid, cushy as hell jobs who are happy to point fingers. My mother always told me "When you point a finger at others, you have three fingers pointing back at you." What are these people personally doing to ensure that they are respecting women, creating the right kind of social climate at work, etc? Because all the policy in the world can't per se fix a shitty culture. Shitty c…

What? You asked, essentially, "why would they walking out if their CEO supports their cause?"

Although I thought the answer was a bit obvious, I answered... Words are cheap and the employees want to see action.

Your response is to talk about pointing fingers? I don't understand your point.

What do you have against Google employees making demands of their managers?

My mother always told me "When you point a finger at others, you have three fingers pointing back at you."

I'm pretty sure employees know that fingers are being pointed at them. Employees are constantly evaluated, and management places expectations on them (both work related and cultural) that those employees must meet, at penalty of termination.

It seems like you're questioning the idea that the fingers should point both ways... by saying that the fingers point both ways.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#316

Post by Harimwakairi » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 7:20 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #308

solipsism wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Words are cheap.

So is grandstanding by people with well paid, cushy as hell jobs who are happy to point fingers. My mother always told me "When you point a finger at others, you have three fingers pointing back at you." What are these people personally doing to ensure that they are respecting women, creating the right kind of social climate at work, etc? Because all the policy in the world can't per se fix a shitty culture. Shitty c…

> What are these people personally doing to ensure that they are respecting women, creating the right kind of social climate at work, etc?

Part of the reason to go to the walkout was to find out what to do. People didn't just stand there doing nothing. They listened to women speak about their experiences and ask for specific, concrete actions from attendees that would lead to less sexual harassment, bias, and associated garbage.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#317

Post by Harvey-Specter » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 7:21 PM UTC

sizzle wrote: post #314

"A clear, uniform, globally inclusive process for reporting sexual misconduct safely and anonymously " Can anyone help me understand the rationale behind the anonymous part, with respect to due process and how the framework for anonymous accusations can be abused by bad actors? Edit - I have a question about the anonymous nature of reporting to HR, with respect to due process for the accuser and accused, maybe some o…

It's probably meant to alleviate fear of retribution.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#318

Post by malvosenior » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 7:21 PM UTC

astura wrote: post #312

malvosenior wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your link: " $3.27 less per hour than men. The median hourly wage is $15.67 for women and $18.94 for men. The gender wage gap is a measure of what women are paid relative to men. It is commonly calculated by dividing women’s wages by men’s wages, and this ratio is often expressed as a percent, or in dollar terms. This tells us how much a woman is paid for each dollar paid to a man. This gender pay ratio is often…

Oh, FFS, c'mon. There's over 12,800 words in the article and 67 citations. It includes sections such as "How do work experience, schedules, and motherhood affect the gender wage gap?", "How do education and job and occupational characteristics affect the gender wage gap?", "Does a woman’s race, age, or pay level affect the gender gap she experiences?", and "What role do 'unobservables' like discrimination and product…

It's an argument against adjusted wage gap calculations or comparing salaries in the same roles. I fundamentally object to the very premise.

> You're arguing on bad faith here.

No, I just disagree with you.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#319

Post by DoreenMichele » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 7:21 PM UTC

solipsism wrote: post #315

DoreenMichele wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is grandstanding by people with well paid, cushy as hell jobs who are happy to point fingers. My mother always told me "When you point a finger at others, you have three fingers pointing back at you." What are these people personally doing to ensure that they are respecting women, creating the right kind of social climate at work, etc? Because all the policy in the world can't per se fix a shitty culture. Shitty c…

What? You asked, essentially, "why would they walking out if their CEO supports their cause?" Although I thought the answer was a bit obvious, I answered... Words are cheap and the employees want to see action. Your response is to talk about pointing fingers? I don't understand your point. What do you have against Google employees making demands of their managers? My mother always told me "When you point a finger at…

Yes, "words are cheap" is so obvious, it goes without saying. It doesn't add anything substantive to the discussion.

So saying that to me really doesn't cast any light whatsoever on this situation for me.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#320

Post by DoreenMichele » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 7:23 PM UTC

Harimwakairi wrote: post #316

DoreenMichele wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is grandstanding by people with well paid, cushy as hell jobs who are happy to point fingers. My mother always told me "When you point a finger at others, you have three fingers pointing back at you." What are these people personally doing to ensure that they are respecting women, creating the right kind of social climate at work, etc? Because all the policy in the world can't per se fix a shitty culture. Shitty c…

> What are these people personally doing to ensure that they are respecting women, creating the right kind of social climate at work, etc? Part of the reason to go to the walkout was to find out what to do. People didn't just stand there doing nothing. They listened to women speak about their experiences and ask for specific, concrete actions from attendees that would lead to less sexual harassment, bias, and associa…

Okay, cool. Is there some reason this piece couldn't be done after hours? (Or, alternately) Is there some reason this couldn't be framed as "We are taking time off to discuss this amongst ourselves and better understand the problem space" without it being framed as a walk-out with a flyer left on the desk filled with their opinion?

Do these things have to go hand in hand?