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Google staff walk out over women's treatment

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#211

Post by malvosenior »

Nelkins wrote: post #148
zimpenfish wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Time magazine, which doesn't exactly seem to be a bastion of conservatism Although Christina Hoff Sommers does have a noticeable bias/axe to grind since she's pretty anti-feminism and considers there to be a "war against boys". Also she works for the AEI which is a conservative think tank.

Agree. When you perform an online search for articles on the "wage gap myth," the majority of the articles seem traceable back to her.

It's because even though there is no data to support the wage gap, it's very unpopular to question it. Christina Hoff Summers is a pioneer in the field of gender equality and has paid a huge price by actually investigating these issues. It's a risky position to take in today's political climate so not many have followed her footsteps.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#212

Post by gambler »

jib wrote: post #193
shados wrote: post #179

Something Ive never understood (not in the sense of I dont agree. What I really mean is I'm uneducated on the topic and would like to find out more, but my searches returned little, since it's a pretty heated topic), is why the company should be the primary responsible entity for this. Maybe for light cases where someone just need a stern talking to, but a lot of the cases are downright criminal acts. Having a privat…

The police are not primarily there to solve civil disputes and disagreements. There is a pretty wide area where things are not illegal and possible to convict, but you would probably want to do something. The police’s mindset (at least the ones I’ve interacted with) is one of three things: 1. Deterrance from crimes to be committed (doesn’t apply here) 2. Achieve convictions for crimes (would also not apply in your si…

>Their job is not to dispense justice, or make sure you get your revenge.

This shouldn't be the job of HR either.

What you describe is what civil courts are for. From societal perspective, it is their exact purpose: to dispense justice and prevent revenge. If they don't work, they need to be made to work, instead of relegating this function to random people with random training and random incentives following random policies that are ultimately designed to safeguard companies, not employees.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#213

Post by ergothus »

debacle wrote: post #142
alexis_fr wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you can see, the divide is becoming greater between ones who “believe” and ones who “don’t”, and the audience is massively imposing a bias here in this thread. We’ve lost our ability to listen to each other, and it’s sad that it happened on a topic which is still very easy to judge using science.

Most reasonable people on HN stay out of these threads. You're not going to change anyone's mind at this point.

I think it is true that you wont change most people's minds. (When I discovered the psychological concept of schema, I was literally horrified)

But some of us are discovering that what we thought of as "normal" (and thus forms the basis of many of of our value judgements) is quite narrow, so we have to adjust our expectations and that changes a lot of things... getting perspectives from others is a necessary and tedious process.

Im in my early 40s and despite thinking I was pretty liberal on most social issues I've spent the last 10 years discovering I've been wrong, poorly informed, and/or ignorant on a lot of details. At this rate, I dont expect to be done with these self-updates anytime soon, and reasoned arguments and shared experiences, fears, concerns, and hopes are essential for me to re-determine where I now stand, each and every day.

Just as an example, another comment made an argument about why the market would theoretically prefer underpaid staff. (Which would then not make them underpaid). A good point, but irreconciable with pay gap data...how do I resolve that? Ah, someone replied with a decent response about the issue BEING perceived value. Armed with these positions I can now spend a few minutes of much more effective research, and have better chances of noticing details in my day-to-day life.

For people who are tired of rehashing the same old arguments with data and answers that are out there for anyone serious to find...it's actually quite hard to find if you dont really know the question, and as unfair as it is, there is a limit to how much time and effort will people will spend grasping at straws about how they themselves might be reinforcing terrible systems. Implicit bias is IMPLICIT and thus it is hard to find out what your biased thoughts are. Effective arguments dramatically reduce that time and effort, and even if most wont take them for that final step, some of us are trying, and are grateful to those that are willing to once again rehash the "obvious" with those that are unlikely to change their minds.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#214

Post by malvosenior »

ergothus wrote: post #213
debacle wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most reasonable people on HN stay out of these threads. You're not going to change anyone's mind at this point.

I think it is true that you wont change most people's minds. (When I discovered the psychological concept of schema, I was literally horrified) But some of us are discovering that what we thought of as "normal" (and thus forms the basis of many of of our value judgements) is quite narrow, so we have to adjust our expectations and that changes a lot of things... getting perspectives from others is a necessary and tedi…

> A good point, but irreconciable with pay gap data

> For people who are tired of rehashing the same old arguments with data and answers that are out there for anyone serious to find...

It's funny that you say that since there is no data supporting the pay gap. In fact there are people posting data in this thread contradicting the pay gap.

If you say data is available to support your argument, you should link to it.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#216

Post by module0000 »

jimbokun wrote: post #203
module0000 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to troll you, but it's a voluntary "denial of justice". No one compels or coerces people to seek employment there. They apply, go through several interviews, and then voluntarily agree to whatever it is they agree to before day #1 of work. As long as people are willing to work there under XYZ conditions, people will continue to work there under XYZ conditions.

People voluntarily entered into indentured servitude once upon a time, too.

They didn't have options - every single Google employee(past and present) has options. They selected this one, voluntarily. Indentured servitude is not a valid analogy.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#217

Post by jccalhoun »

alexis_fr wrote: post #105
qubax wrote: post #87

"A commitment to end pay and opportunity inequity"? I'm confused here. Are they demanding that preferential hiring and advancement practices and programs for women and certain minorities be stopped?

As you can see, the divide is becoming greater between ones who “believe” and ones who “don’t”, and the audience is massively imposing a bias here in this thread. We’ve lost our ability to listen to each other, and it’s sad that it happened on a topic which is still very easy to judge using science.

>a topic which is still very easy to judge using science

So how would you do that?

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#219

Post by zepto »

ChrisRR wrote: post #113
qubax wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would be genuinely interested to see what kind of difference there is between the sexes when comparing like-for-like jobs. There really aren't any differences. Just do a simple mental exercise. Imagine if the gender gap is real. Male programmers demand $100K while female programmers demand $77K for the same exact quality of work. What would this mean? It would mean all tech companies would only hire females. For…

Why make assumptions? I'm an engineer and I make decisions based on data and information presented to me, and try to avoid guess work and assumptions as much as possible.

What about the assumptions you haven’t identified?

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#220

Post by notyourwork »

jamiegreen wrote: post #197
notyourwork wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly the police don’t have the resources to go “investigate” every time someone said let’s settle this outside. Where do you drawn the line for stern talking and police investigation. Your idea sounds good in theory but in practice doesn’t work.

>Sadly *Thankfully

You're probably more correct, I was trying to empathize with OP but I do agree I don't think the police are the right party for this mediation.
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