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Google staff walk out over women's treatment

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#201

Post by kazagistar »

kiliantics wrote: post #185
shados wrote: post #179

Something Ive never understood (not in the sense of I dont agree. What I really mean is I'm uneducated on the topic and would like to find out more, but my searches returned little, since it's a pretty heated topic), is why the company should be the primary responsible entity for this. Maybe for light cases where someone just need a stern talking to, but a lot of the cases are downright criminal acts. Having a privat…

As you point out, the cops are often useless too. Now imagine you call the cops on your boss and they show up to talk with him/her. How might your boss be treating you after this?

The same is true for HR; that's why there is additional rles around retaliation.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#202

Post by jerf »

ChrisRR wrote: post #10

So the first demand is "A commitment to end pay and opportunity inequality" I'd like to see the actual data behind this constant inequality claim. I would be genuinely interested to see what kind of difference there is between the sexes when comparing like-for-like jobs. I've heard speculation that women don't argue for higher salaries as much as men, I've also heard that the data is never accurate because it doesn't…

A lot of replies to ChrisRR's comment go out to the global level, but Google can't fix that. The interesting question is "what kind of difference there is between the sexes when comparing like-for-like jobs" at Google. That's what they can address. Does it exist?

If it does exist, that's a very serious problem, because if Google can't and/or hasn't attained pay parity that would satisfy the people writing this, then pack it in; there's no way it's ever going to happen. Google is just about the best possible environment for parity to happen in, with an almost uniform culture that would support it from top to bottom and enough money that it can pursue almost any parity policy it wants without a serious problem, and a long time frame in which this all should have been true.

If there is still systematic, unsatisfactory bias at Google, what hope is there for these ideas in the rest of the world?

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#203

Post by jimbokun »

module0000 wrote: post #199
anon1252 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's no real process in place for situations of misconduct in the office. There shouldn't be a "process" set by Google when it comes to sexual harassment, employees should be able to sue, that's the process,sexual harassment is a crime, they can't sue because Google force them into arbitration, which should be illegal for an employer to do that to an employee IMHO. this is a denial of justice.

I'm not trying to troll you, but it's a voluntary "denial of justice". No one compels or coerces people to seek employment there. They apply, go through several interviews, and then voluntarily agree to whatever it is they agree to before day #1 of work. As long as people are willing to work there under XYZ conditions, people will continue to work there under XYZ conditions.

People voluntarily entered into indentured servitude once upon a time, too.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#204

Post by sidcool »

geofft wrote: post #168
StudentStuff wrote: post #125

There is no will from upper management to handle these issues appropriately, which is part of why Google as an organization is in its current state. Google has been able to paper over issues with copious amounts of money thus far, but that is breaking down as time goes on.

I think it is more than that: there is a will from upper management to actively prevent such issues from being handled appropriately. > Larry and Sergey had like this gaggle of girls who were hot, and all become like their little harem of admins, I call them the L&S Harem, yes. All those girls are now different heads of departments in that company, years later. > Sergey’s the Google playboy. He was known for getting…

This is pretty explosive. I had no idea of this. Is there an alternate source to the claims?

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#205

Post by kamaal »

smacktoward wrote: post #187
kamaal wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody ever gets interview feedbacks in this industry. What you are saying is true, but its always impossible to establish intentions. And either way you have to sue. All the best ever getting a job if you are known to do legal fights against prospective employers. >>Union organizing is not a "part time political project," it is a legally protected right. One believes in these things only until they become managers t…

> One believes in these things only until they become managers themselves. The law isn't Tinker Bell, it doesn't require you to believe in it to exist. > And every one aspires to be one in this industry. It's difficult to think of anything sadder than a person who assents to his own exploitation in the hopes that maybe, someday, he will get to exploit someone else.

I rest my case, sir.

I also wish you the very best with your activism.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#206

Post by kazagistar »

cjslep wrote: post #188
sunir wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prosecution is one method of deterring thieves from robbing my store blind. I have also tried locked doors, security cameras and not leaving the store unattended. I like your argument that it is cheaper to just let people rob me blind and then burn time and energy catching them, prosecuting time, and hoping for a conviction as a deterrent. With any luck using your system crime will magically disappear on it’s own. I…

Comparing sexual assault to a store robbery in a tone of sarcasm is at best a poor judgement call. I agree that assaulters need to take responsibility for their actions. However, when they don't, the law needs to be there to protect the victims.

Only if the law can prove beyond reasonable doubt that a crime happened, which is often difficult and why it makes sense to metaphorically secure the premises through an internal HR process as well.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#207

Post by jimbokun »

zimpenfish wrote: post #115
brobdingnagians wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time magazine, which doesn't exactly seem to be a bastion of conservatism, had an article about this http://time.com/3222543/wage-pay-gap-myth-feminism/ , which had more hard-facts than anyone else I've seen, but the conclusion was that most of the claims made by the wage gap supporters are cherrypicked and false. Although, if Google specifically has a problem with it, I'd definitely be willing to listen. If they are…

> Time magazine, which doesn't exactly seem to be a bastion of conservatism Although Christina Hoff Sommers does have a noticeable bias/axe to grind since she's pretty anti-feminism and considers there to be a "war against boys". Also she works for the AEI which is a conservative think tank.

"Christina Hoff Sommers does not agree with my positions on issues therefore is biased and cannot be trusted, compared to people who do agree with my positions on issues, who are not biased and can be trusted."

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#208

Post by falsedan »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #95
prepend wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is part of the perception that machine learning is magical. This problem is as difficult as getting an accurate IQ. If you’re going to base pay- something really serious- on such an algorithm, it must be open and reproducible. Google is really good at this and that it doesn’t exist in a useful way is a signal that there is no algorithm. It would be extremely valuable to companies to know this like a cred…

That's why I specifically excluded deep learning stuff. I was imagining something much simpler only marginally more complex than title base salary + x * years experience + y * years at google. Where the factors are initially chosen to get close to the current state.

How about standardised bands for competency? E.g. a software engineer level 3 step 2 has mentored three people, been the tech lead/written the OKRs for a 6-month project, and has X years of experience on other projects (in the earlier levels)?

Then it would be a simple HR policy to assign that engineer to whichever compensation band covered those levels when they joined a new company.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#209

Post by Kiro »

I support this but I also wish other companies would be under the same scrutiny as Google. I've been at companies where women not only were paid much much less but also more or less objects that were openly treated as such.

There would be management meetings about rating the sexiest coworkers and who could lay down the most (obviously not a single woman in whole of management and they had no chance of moving even close to it in their career). All sanctioned from the highest level and not a single person would dare to question it. I was not actively participating but also part of the problem since I didn't say anything.

This was not even done in secret and more or less public knowledge. The communication from management had a lot of sexist jokes and pictures and anyone questioning it "had no humor".

Mind you, this was not a tech company per say and I believe the further you get from tech the worse it gets. I think it's sad that the huge problem affecting 99% of women gets reduced to a single company which probably is one of the few in the world that even has a code of conduct against this stuff.

Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment

#210

Post by [deleted] »

drdeadringer wrote: post #196
vynyl wrote: post #178

Google needs to stand firm against these policies. Making the "chief diversity officer" answer directly to the CEO and make recommendations to the board of directors is an absurd demand. They would open themselves up to huge amounts of foreign manipulation and political sabotage.

> They would open themselves up to huge amounts of foreign manipulation and political sabotage. I'd like to know how you envision this happening. Like, China calls Google's CDO and says "We'd love to see more Chinese hires, we might consider sending you a welcome-back invitation"?

[deleted]
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