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Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

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Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#51

Post by latj »

rtkwe wrote: post #20
ergothus wrote: post #3

The actual legal issues in question are barely touched on in the article: > But some environmentalists and Native Hawaiian groups say the spread of observatories on the summit has polluted the mountain, interfering with traditional cultural and religious practices, or are actually infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom. The links in the article to the actual decisions are broken (for me at least) The a…

> infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom Is there actually any legally recognized sovereignty for Hawaii or native Hawaiians? Tried doing a quick search but it all came back with an ongoing sovereignty movement but nothing similar to the Native American tribes.

Hi, I just replied to the original comment but no there is no Hawaiian tribe. Many (most?) Hawaiians dont want to be a recognized tribe because they consider themselves a nation within a nation.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#52

Post by idoescompooters »

ergothus wrote: post #3

The actual legal issues in question are barely touched on in the article: > But some environmentalists and Native Hawaiian groups say the spread of observatories on the summit has polluted the mountain, interfering with traditional cultural and religious practices, or are actually infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom. The links in the article to the actual decisions are broken (for me at least) The a…

I currently work for one of the big agencies behind astronomical observing, and my boss was telling me today (an hour before I show him this article) about the unnecessary amount of environmental hurdles this project has gone through. And he mentioned that during the protests that occurred at the construction site, equipment was actually vandalized.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#53

Post by dnautics »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #30
duxup wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably this is somewhat similar to other native american tribes where there are treaties and legal structures that allow them to make their case under that name / formalized what it means today?

The autonomy and sovereignty of continental tribes is severely curtailed by the US claim of plenary authority over them. They are independent nations largely in name only.

> They are independent nations largely in name only.

I was under the impression that the "independent nations" concept implied independence from the states. Naturally as the power in the US has shifted away from the states towards the federal government the autonomy and sovereignty of the tribes has decreased.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#54

Post by PopePompous »

I don't think this ruling changes much. The TMT project had permission to start construction 3 years ago. They could not even hold the ground-breaking ceremony, because protesters blocked the access road. Every time the TMT construction crews tried to drive up the mountain, protesters would stand in the road, and block the vehicles. A couple of hours later police would show up. They would stand around for 3ish more hours, and then arrest perhaps 5% of the people blocking the road. By the time that was done, it was too late for the construction crews to get to the summit and do any work, so everyone drove back down. The few people who were arrested were immediately released once they arrived in Hilo, so they'd be ready to do it all again the next day if the crews tried to return to the mountain. No significant fines were ever levied on the arrested protesters.

The only way the TMT construction will be able to proceed is if local law enforcement is willing to arrest dozens of protesters (including "aunties" - photogenic elderly Hawaiian women) every week day, and not release them immediately. There is absolutely no reason to believe that will happen.

Even if the local law enforcement officials are willing to perform mass arrests, there are lots of other pressure points that the protesters could attack. I would not be surprised to see the protesters shut down the University of Hawaii, which hosts the Institute for Astronomy that runs Maunakea Observatory, because that university has a very active Hawaiian Studies program.

I worked for an observatory on Maunakea when the the first set of TMT construction protests took place. The protesters were allowed to build an unpermitted shelter building, to make blocking the road more convenient for them. If they spend half a day piling rocks in the road, they can declare that it is a sacred shrine, and the road maintenance crews cannot simply remove it. Meanwhile, our observatory had to go through a formal review process with an outside board if we wanted to move a small weather station from one side of our building's roof to another side.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#55

Post by gaius »

komali2 wrote: post #36
rayiner wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't like this because I think seizing via violence is fucked As you acknowledge in the next paragraph, it’s not like Native Americans weren’t seizing land from each other by violence. So what good does it do to write off the primary ways in which land is acquired in the absence of any applicable legal process?

I didn't intend to write off, I just took a moment to insert my own opinion. Does bring up a good point though - are the borders of most countries now "locked in?" Perhaps. Federations might form / break apart, which could shift around "sovereign territory." Like, imagine the EU consolidating, or the USA splitting.

are the borders of most countries now "locked in?

Ask the Ukrainians.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#56

Post by PopePompous »

latj wrote: post #50
ergothus wrote: post #3

The actual legal issues in question are barely touched on in the article: > But some environmentalists and Native Hawaiian groups say the spread of observatories on the summit has polluted the mountain, interfering with traditional cultural and religious practices, or are actually infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom. The links in the article to the actual decisions are broken (for me at least) The a…

Hawaii is in a unique position because there are still plenty of native Hawaiians around. They arent a native tribe recognized by the U.S. government and some number (most in my mind) dont want to be. Because the overthrow of the last government of the Kingdom of Hawaii was done under shady conditions (basically the sugar barons formed a provisional government and then told the U.S. that they'd like to become a part…

Your point about there being no universally recognized Native Hawaiian representative organization is a very good one. There's no group or finite set of groups, that the TMT could reach an agreement with (by providing scholarships, environmental offsets, rent, etc.) and then be free from the protests. Three people getting angry in a Hilo coffee shop can stop construction of the TMT.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#57

Post by ceejayoz »

dnautics wrote: post #53
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The autonomy and sovereignty of continental tribes is severely curtailed by the US claim of plenary authority over them. They are independent nations largely in name only.

> They are independent nations largely in name only. I was under the impression that the "independent nations" concept implied independence from the states. Naturally as the power in the US has shifted away from the states towards the federal government the autonomy and sovereignty of the tribes has decreased.

It's a bit more than that - New York can't ban Ohioans from their territory, but Native American tribes can.

https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions

> Tribes possess all powers of self-government except those relinquished under treaty with the United States, those that Congress has expressly extinguished, and those that federal courts have ruled are subject to existing federal law or are inconsistent with overriding national policies.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#58

Post by User23 »

rayiner wrote: post #29
komali2 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes, that's the issue at hand. Probably legally you're just as correct as that issue recently where a bunch of tourists were stomping all over some hills that were sacred to Australian aborigines, but according to the Australian government were legal hiking paths. The most, legally, the aborigines could do was put up a sign saying "these hills are important to us for religious, please don't walk on them." There…

> don't like this because I think seizing via violence is fucked As you acknowledge in the next paragraph, it’s not like Native Americans weren’t seizing land from each other by violence. So what good does it do to write off the primary ways in which land is acquired in the absence of any applicable legal process?

The law itself is predicated on violence. What would a legal ruling mean without enforcement? Indeed the colonization of the new world was entirely legal under the laws of the colonists.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#59

Post by User23 »

gaius wrote: post #55
komali2 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't intend to write off, I just took a moment to insert my own opinion. Does bring up a good point though - are the borders of most countries now "locked in?" Perhaps. Federations might form / break apart, which could shift around "sovereign territory." Like, imagine the EU consolidating, or the USA splitting.

are the borders of most countries now "locked in? Ask the Ukrainians.

Interesting thing about annexation is that legally it isn't the taking of territory, it's recognizing that an area has always been part of one's territory.

This can get messy, but it can also give rise to some really culturally fascinating places, like the Alsace.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#60

Post by adrr »

jmisavage wrote: post #28
ergothus wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding (based on visiting hawaii as a tourist and not much else) is that no, there's not a US-legally recognized sovereignty, but there is a step back from: * "They voluntarily joined the US" language * the repression of culture - in particular but not limited to language, which was apparently ruthlessly quashed for a long while and is enjoying a lot more respect today, relatively speaking. In a courtroom I…

There's a rich history of corporations and the us government screwing over Hawaiians. The monarchy was overthrown by a group of businessmen and sugar planters after they forced Queen Liliuokalani to abdicate. Two years later it became a US territory against the wishes of the natives. Then the sugar industry help keep it a territory for 60 years because they could import cheap foreign labor.

History of Hawaii is all about using force to take land from the population. First settler where from the Marquesas Islands and they were conquered by the Tahitians.
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