When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves • Hacker News Board

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#381

Post by mywittyname » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

otakucode wrote: post #327

framebit wrote: post #278

A therapist friend recently attended a conference where a big group of doctors and health professionals focused around adolescents presented on the link between pot and the development of psychosis and even schizophrenia in users under age 32 or something like that. I've definitely heard about this colloquially with people reacting very differently to the same strain ("we were all fine but she was just freaking out")…

Every study done, and likely to ever be done given ethical standards, attempting to link marijuana usage to mental illness shares the same fundamental problem which makes their results meaningless: It cannot account for self-selection. There is no way to know that those who would later be diagnosed with schizophrenia were not self medicating with marijuana, leading to the causation actually being backwards. And in th…

This same argument could be applied to many long-term medical studies: Maybe people with a pre-disposition to heart disease also hate exercising, so the link between heart disease is and lack of exercise is backwards. Yeah, that doesn't work.

Ignoring the link between mental illness and marijuana use is ridiculous. A medical study doesn't need 100% confidence to be true. If we held all of medical science to that bar, we'd never make progress.

Plus, we have a colloquialism for a person whose mind appears to have suffered damage from excessive marijuana usage: a burnout. It's something that even recreational users observe. And where there's smoke...

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#382

Post by smileysteve » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

thecatspaw wrote: post #363

LrnByTeach wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The same? It is not the same. Look at the opioid epidemic in teens across USA, talk to health care providers in that area, there is very well recorded evidence "a BIG percentage" of kids who personally noticed "Learning problems and other mental problems" are UNABLE to STOP using weed. Vs. There is recorded clinical data evidence throughout USA hospitals. Millions of kids across the country were found having various…

Yes, but a food allergy is something you can feel. You feel sick, you might have to go to the hospital once or twice if you ate something which contained peanuts. It is a much tighter feedback loop. Eat some peanuts -> feel sick -> go to hospital. As far as I am aware this loop is very quick. If you extend this feedback loop to span multiple years, the connection between trigger and result is a lot more blurry, and i…

> Peanuts are also not (mentally) addictive, and neither do they alter your mental state

Yes, they are? Anecdotally, if i put a bowl of peanuts on my desk, I'll eat them without knowing it, and speed up eating them when nervous, thinking, or bored. Any habit a human does enough can be mentally addictive.

Importantly, neither are physiologically addictive.

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#383

Post by LrnByTeach » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

framebit wrote: post #278

A therapist friend recently attended a conference where a big group of doctors and health professionals focused around adolescents presented on the link between pot and the development of psychosis and even schizophrenia in users under age 32 or something like that. I've definitely heard about this colloquially with people reacting very differently to the same strain ("we were all fine but she was just freaking out")…

All high school weed smokers are not equal. There are many occasional smokers.

For the sake of simplicity, let me put a number here.

High schooler between 9th to 12 grade who smoke weed at least 10 times a week all four years will settle in LIFE below 50% of his potential (compared to how he would have done without weed)

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#384

Post by TheBeardKing » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 5:53 PM UTC

Balero wrote: post #86

Waterluvian wrote: post #67

Maybe this is too reductionist but I once heard someone describe it as, "there's nothing fundamentally dangerous about pot, but one of its (often intended) effects is that is slows our engines down. And some of us need to be firing on all cylinders." School was a tricky time for me. I'm thriving intellectually now, but I was a C- student pretty much 4th-12th grade. I needed those cycles that pot would have robbed me…

South Park put it quite well: "Well, Stan, the truth is marijuana probably isn't gonna make you kill people, and it most likely isn't gonna fund terrorism, but… well, son, pot makes you feel fine with being bored. And it's when you're bored that you should be learning some new skill or discovering some new science or being creative. If you smoke pot you may grow up to find out that you aren't good at anything."

There's a difference between being productive and being entertained. Stan's father describes productive activities, but sometimes you just want to relax and be entertained. Everything in moderation.

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#385

Post by cowpewter » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 5:56 PM UTC

thecatspaw wrote: post #254

3pt14159 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is. This topic is more complex than simple HN comments are going to cover. There are different types of ADHD and though ADHD is good for software development (because of hyperfocus) it's also correlated with having a lower IQ. So high functioning ADHD people are a rarity and they're often in software or something similar for a multitude of reasons. What you read here is how smart people with ADHD feel about their…

Neurotypicals can hyperfocus as well, and personally for me (ADHD-PI) I hyperfocus very few times at work, but more frequently at home. I would argue that hyperfocus vs inattention is a net-loss for my employee

Also ADHD-PI, and yeah, hyperfocus is great for coding, but you have to be working on something "interesting enough" to trigger it. Not all the work you will do at work will be interesting, so without treatment you swing wildly between being super productive and massively unproductive, which might be okay in a small startup but fails to mesh with larger companies that expect any sort of consistency in your output.

So it's not just the loss of productivity from inattention that's a problem for most jobs, but the lack of consistency in your output.

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#386

Post by DisruptiveDave » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 5:57 PM UTC

icelancer wrote: post #233

DisruptiveDave wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny because all it has ever done for me is the opposite. I'm a pretty energetic dude and weed has always made me want to get out and move, go and play a pickup game or something. It has also brought a different type of focus on any activity I'm doing. I see a lot of pretty silly takes in this thread that weed automatically makes you happy with boredom somehow, and that apparently leads to a bunch of people sit…

No, but the pharmacological effects are not to be ignored just because you have a different personal experience with the drug. I am on a balanced schedule of stimulants that keep me productive and not-depressed. This doesn't give me the right to tell people to take these drugs because of my personal opinion; research shows the effects of stimulant use, abuse, and misuse, and it's mostly pretty negative.

I think we're saying the same thing here. Look at all sides. Don't make blanket judgments. One person's experience does not necessarily become another's. Science is good, but not a guarantee.

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#387

Post by macspoofing » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 5:59 PM UTC

gnulinux wrote: post #364

macspoofing wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that? There is a world of difference between stating that young people are naturally curious, and stating that drug 'experimentation' (or 'experimenting' with some other dangerous activity) by young people is natural.

Drug experimenting is not dangerous at all. If you know how to read, you can read studies about these drugs. Drugs like weed, alcohol, LSD, tobacco are extremely well-tested and we know most short-term/long-term effects on adult humans. If you decided to experiment with something known to be toxic to humans (like cigarettes), then that's on you. If you read studies claiming pot to be safe, and you're not convinced, t…

>Drug experimenting is not dangerous at all.

No problems with 13 year-olds trying heroin?

>If you read studies claiming pot to be safe, and you're not convinced, then don't smoke it.

Pot isn't safe for kids, and there are multitudes of studies that show this. Will it hurt if a kid does something dumb once or twice? No. But habitual use is disastrous, from a brain developmental standpoint, mental health, and the sheer amount of time lost by being 'drunk' and not focusing on things like school. Pot is also addictive, not in the same way that heroin is, but it is addictive.

Keep in mind, the original statement was around what is natural and what is isn't. I'm not conceding that it is natural for kids to smoke pot or do other drugs.

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#388

Post by adventured » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 6:00 PM UTC

zahrc wrote: post #377

bitzun wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun anecdote, my Bipolar disorder didn't manifest itself until immediately after the first time I consumed marijuana, and it is now a lifetime endeavor.

I know a lot of people who tried out marijuana as a medication for depression. (well, illegal / no prescription) It helped in the beginning, but most of them just became addicted, paranoid and incredible slow thinkers and figuratively numb. Depression is hell, but it's not worth giving up your sanity and intellect.

I'm a big supporter of legalization, because I think prohibition is dramatically worse than any negatives from people smoking pot (similar to alcohol, etc).

That said, the two friends of mine that were the heaviest smokers, saw dramatic improvements in their lives in the few years immediately following giving up smoking pot. Both in terms of health and professional success. They were recreational smokers, rather than smoking for pain purposes or similar, it should be noted. One of them has become a very successful business person, the pot smoking had considerably dulled their ambition. They used to do the minimum to further their life. Afterward, their potential was unleashed, it was night and day (and a dramatic benefit to the well-being of their family).

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#389

Post by tomazio » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #296

Rotdhizon wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Deleted]

I know people who were like that in high school who are just fine now. Actually, come to think of it I can't think of a single one of the 'stoners' that were in my grade at school who wasted their time being stoned constantly who didn't at least end up living a reasonable life to this point. The few that didn't were the ones that either got into harder drugs or were already also stealing or hanging out with gangsters…

No to dissuade or reject your points but you might have ADD/ADHD if that's how marijuana affects you.

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#390

Post by nicoburns » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 6:04 PM UTC

stouset wrote: post #229

nicoburns wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a similar attitude to MSG. It's probably not going to give you cancer, or cause any serious health problems, but it makes you ok with eating non-nutritious food that would otherwise be bland and tasteless.

Only because fearmongering has scared people away from MSG. You can use it to improve the flavor of nutritious food, too. It’s conceptually no different than salt; junk food contains it, but that doesn’t mean you should avoid it in your own cooking.

This was more or less my point about MSG.