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In defense of Wikileaks

walt.foreignpolicy.com

11–20 of 39 posts

Re: In defense of Wikileaks

#11

>It is also increasingly clear that the U.S. taxpayer is funding a vast array of clandestine activities of which they are only dimly aware Increasingly clear? This book was published in the early thirties [1]. This has been totally clear for decades for anyone who cared to look. The quest is; what (if anything) can be done to make people care what the government is inflicting on other peoples in their name and with t…

You've already made the point that I'm about to make. That book is from the 30's, it hasn't made the best seller lists in decades; nor am I aware if it's required reading for most classes. People need a modern reminder like Wikileaks.

People need a modern reminder like Wikileaks

Is there really a lack of suspicion of intelligence agaencies going about? Roughly one out of every three movies currently being made is something about the US Government being secretly involved in dodgy clandestine activities. How many movies have the "twist" that the real bad guys turn out to be some corrupt US Government official?

Want to make a short list? Count up the number of movies where the CIA is portrayed in a positive light. Even the latest James Bond, a series which has been refreshingly positive in its depiction of the Western intelligence agencies, had the CIA as the bad guys.

Ask people what they think of the CIA and you'll find that they have an image much more Jason Bourne than real life.

Re: In defense of Wikileaks

#12
post #3

A good article. Too often I feel the debate about wikileaks has become polarised. On the one hand you have those saying everything should be open and available. And then on the other hand you have those who say that nothing should be leaked because it puts people at risk. There is no doubt that, in the world, there are some very unpleasant people who want to harm/kill other people, and for that reason surely some thi…

I'd trust Julian Assange a lot more if I thought that his goal were actually some sort of obsessive-compulsive desire for openness of information, rather than fighting against US interests.

Re: In defense of Wikileaks

#13
post #7

>It is also increasingly clear that the U.S. taxpayer is funding a vast array of clandestine activities of which they are only dimly aware Increasingly clear? This book was published in the early thirties [1]. This has been totally clear for decades for anyone who cared to look. The quest is; what (if anything) can be done to make people care what the government is inflicting on other peoples in their name and with t…

I was going to question that idea too. That book you just brought to my attention is amazing. A man in that time, speaking out like that? Wow.

> A man in that time, speaking out like that? Wow.

Why are you surprised at such stuff from the 30s? (There's similar stuff from the 1910s, the 1890s, 1860s and even that wasn't novel.)

Re: In defense of Wikileaks

#14
But unless you're willing to believe that the people in charge are always right and that their lies are therefore justified (and if you think that, you haven't been paying attention), you ought to be in favor of any mechanism that brought more facts to light.

First, I'm a huge fan of leaking information. We have a thousand times too much secrecy as we can stand already. People who leak things -- especially things that the government finds inconvenient for political reasons -- should be praised.

Having said that, this author is arguing at the extremes. I am not in favor of using any mechanism to bring facts to light. Murder? Bribery? Torture? Nope, I expect leakers to come forward honestly, not under duress. Do I support the selective leaking of information by foreign intelligence services? Nope, because the purposeful leaking of information to sway public opinion is called propaganda, and it's the most effective when it's true information. Things exist in a context.

Because of the context question, it's actually better that wikileaks dumped thousands of records. If, say, there had only been a couple hundred, folks could easily charge that the docs were hand-picked.

Second, and this is more important, as much as I love leaking and openness, I am not a child. Some amount of secrecy is necessary for a government to function. Salary negotiations, diplomatic memos, military threat assessments, signals intelligence -- lots of things need to be keep secret. Even if you have a complete bunch of idiots in charge of running things, that doesn't mean that any method used to dump any kind of secret information is good. And that's exactly the point the author is making in the quote above.

I hate to say this, and I know you guys are going to downvote me for it, but I can't help but think that this all gets back to political affiliation: if you don't like the politics, then leak the information. It's the good guys against the military-industrial complex. If you like the politics, then it's a crime to leak the information. It's the zealous idiots against the sane organization of humanity into governmental structures.

I don't buy any of it. Not everything has to be open, and we must have an extreme amount of more public information available in order to function intelligently as voters. Both of these views can coexist. That doesn't mean that what Wikileaks did is right: in fact if they get somebody killed? I'd view them more as another combatant rather than a player for good in all of this. I have to draw the line with leaks -- whether I like the politics or not -- with getting people killed. After all, one of the main reasons we have an executive branch is to put people in charge of making sensitive decisions based on secret information that get people killed. Looking over their shoulder every minute is not part of our role in a democracy. Checking up on them and getting as many facts as we can? Sure. But not micro-managing.

If the executive branch didn't have secret information and make sensitive decisions that large portions of the population didn't believe in? There would be no point in having it. The president is nothing special -- he's just another schmuck -- but he does have a defined job and he needs the tools to do that job. Secrecy is part of the tools he needs, no matter how much we wish it weren't so.

Re: In defense of Wikileaks

#15

But unless you're willing to believe that the people in charge are always right and that their lies are therefore justified (and if you think that, you haven't been paying attention), you ought to be in favor of any mechanism that brought more facts to light. First, I'm a huge fan of leaking information. We have a thousand times too much secrecy as we can stand already. People who leak things -- especially things tha…

This isn't really a question of secrecy -- you can be on any part of the political spectrum and still agree that troop movements and strategy should never be made public.

This is more about disinformation -- if any entities (al-Qaeda, NATO, North Korea, the US) intentionally release false reports, they deserve to be called on it.

For all the talk of asymmetrical warfare on the part of al-Qaeda and its ilk, and how the allies toil under the strain of the Geneva Conventions, ultimately the rules of war are arbitrary, elusive, and ambiguous.

I take very seriously the idea that Wikileaks could harm people as a result of the information they release, but it's a bit rich when the Pentagon raises this objection. Between Wikileaks and the US military, it's pretty clear who the asymmetry favors.

Re: In defense of Wikileaks

#16

But unless you're willing to believe that the people in charge are always right and that their lies are therefore justified (and if you think that, you haven't been paying attention), you ought to be in favor of any mechanism that brought more facts to light. First, I'm a huge fan of leaking information. We have a thousand times too much secrecy as we can stand already. People who leak things -- especially things tha…

Well, sure, the government has a right to classified information in some way, shape or form.

But do me a favor and watch the evening news for the rest of the week. After that week of news watching, would you conclude we're spending multiple billions of dollars per week prosecuting 2 wars with hundreds of casualties per week at the hands of American munitions?

No, but you can find a guy scrawling deranged conspiracy theories on a chalk board about how the President was born in Kenya. Great. I'm all about the loyal opposition, but come on, really?

Wikileaks is just a symptom - our media sucks. They should be on this stuff themselves.

Re: In defense of Wikileaks

#17

>It is also increasingly clear that the U.S. taxpayer is funding a vast array of clandestine activities of which they are only dimly aware Increasingly clear? This book was published in the early thirties [1]. This has been totally clear for decades for anyone who cared to look. The quest is; what (if anything) can be done to make people care what the government is inflicting on other peoples in their name and with t…

Thanks for pointing out this book. Its a very interesting read. Direct link to the online version of the book : http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html#c1

Re: In defense of Wikileaks

#18

But unless you're willing to believe that the people in charge are always right and that their lies are therefore justified (and if you think that, you haven't been paying attention), you ought to be in favor of any mechanism that brought more facts to light. First, I'm a huge fan of leaking information. We have a thousand times too much secrecy as we can stand already. People who leak things -- especially things tha…

> but I can't help but think that this all gets back to political affiliation: if you don't like the politics, then leak the information.

This happens somewhat, but I think you're overstating the case.

I want bad _policies_ and bad _actions_ leaked. I want bastards abusing their position caught. I want bastards not abusing their position to be afraid of getting caught. Naturally what I think of as _bad_ depends on my politics. And naturally the policies and actions taken by those in power depend on their politics (though not all that much.) And naturally there is some bias in how I judge based on the politics of those in power. But I still want abuses leaked no matter whose watch they're under, because I want the abuses to stop. I want the public to be made aware of the consequences of war, both intended and non, as they need to be the ones judging if it is worth it.

Re: In defense of Wikileaks

#19
post #7

>It is also increasingly clear that the U.S. taxpayer is funding a vast array of clandestine activities of which they are only dimly aware Increasingly clear? This book was published in the early thirties [1]. This has been totally clear for decades for anyone who cared to look. The quest is; what (if anything) can be done to make people care what the government is inflicting on other peoples in their name and with t…

I was going to question that idea too. That book you just brought to my attention is amazing. A man in that time, speaking out like that? Wow.

Remember, there was a huge strain of aggressive pacifism in the US in the 1930s, which is how the US stayed out of World War 2 until 1941. Come to think of it, there was a pretty huge strain of aggressive pacifism in England as well, which is how Hitler got as far as he did.

The 1930s was pretty much peak hour for pacifism. We'd just had World War 1 to remind us that war was a terrible thing, and hadn't yet had World War 2 to remind us that war wasn't the worst possible thing.

One could argue that the more popular pacifism gets the more likely war becomes, but it would be overly trite and based on an insufficient sample. It's a good line though.

Re: In defense of Wikileaks

#20

But unless you're willing to believe that the people in charge are always right and that their lies are therefore justified (and if you think that, you haven't been paying attention), you ought to be in favor of any mechanism that brought more facts to light. First, I'm a huge fan of leaking information. We have a thousand times too much secrecy as we can stand already. People who leak things -- especially things tha…

> That doesn't mean that what Wikileaks did is right: in fact if they get somebody killed?

Has there been a single report that this happened the first time they leaked the information?

The article itself said "Robert Gates has acknowledged that earlier Wikileaks releases did not in fact compromises sensitive information or methods".

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