Earlier quoted context omitted.
and it’s adoption rate is a great example of what that does to user experience
Are you trying to paint PGP in a positive light with this comment? Putting "user experience" anywhere near PGP/GPG makes most gpg users immediately gag. gpg offered a solution to encrypting email. No one uses it because it's unusable. gpg offered a solution to releasing signatures beside releases with the idea that users could verify them through the web of trust. The exactly zero people who notice when the person si…
Technology preview: Sealed sender for Signal
81–90 of 162 posts
Re: Technology preview: Sealed sender for Signal
#82Here's an idea, Signal, how about removing the requirement that everything be tied to phone numbers? BBM back in the day worked great with their unique "PINs", that could be shared by QR code, and I could reject an "add" request.
This is the "Go y u no generics" of secure messaging. The answer is always the same: Phone numbers bootstrap a workable social network for ordinary users. Signal's goal is to transform all ordinary messaging into secure messaging. Not elite secure messaging. All messaging . The most popular messaging application in the world uses phone numbers for identifiers (as, obviously, does SMS). That's the goal they've set for…
What it doesn't answer is: why can't Signal also provide an option to add a contact using something other than a phone number? Bold, italics, and double-underline on the also. Is it simply a question of finite developer time?
I have multiple specific segments of the population in mind who would benefit greatly from the secure private messaging Signal provides but for whom exchanging phone numbers is a total non-starter. "Ordinary", non-technical, non-"elite secure" people. I hate the framing of this problem as some sort of niche techie elitism. That's a dodge that reflects a social blind spot of its own.
Re: Technology preview: Sealed sender for Signal
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
What? Why is sms considered "elite secure messaging", as you put it? They don't have to "solve every problem" but just not asking for a real-world identifier like a phone number. Just ask for an email. It isn't that hard. The whole phone number thing is a massive turn off. Everyone has literally been using email since the advent of the internet. No all of a sudden we have to get sms involved for a service that provid…
Email is a generational thing. Older generations didn't have one. A lot of people getting on the internet today don't have one, either, especially in developing nations. But Android needs one, you say -- they'll get their tech friend or someone at the phone store to login once, so they can access the play store. But that's not secure, you say -- they don't necessarily care about that. The nice thing about phone numbe…
Re: Technology preview: Sealed sender for Signal
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
and it’s adoption rate is a great example of what that does to user experience
Are you trying to paint PGP in a positive light with this comment? Putting "user experience" anywhere near PGP/GPG makes most gpg users immediately gag. gpg offered a solution to encrypting email. No one uses it because it's unusable. gpg offered a solution to releasing signatures beside releases with the idea that users could verify them through the web of trust. The exactly zero people who notice when the person si…
Re: Technology preview: Sealed sender for Signal
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry but you must see how that's obviously jumping to conclusions. Just because you haven't had issues with Signal doesn't mean it's reliable. I have been using it for 3 years and struggle to recommend it to people because I constantly have reliability issues, including messages delayed for hours, bugs where contacts get in an unusable state and other little weird things. Whatsapp doesn't have these issues, so even…
I'm not jumping to conclusions. For a product to have millions of users and no long term, outstanding, unfixed issues in their repo I don't seem to see the validity in your claim. Claiming it's Signal because your WhatsApp works is, obviously, jumping to conclusions. Can you provide any issue you've submitted from years ago that hasn't been addressed? Please post it, I'd like to see.
Granted, a lot of these are probably outdated. However, given that there are literally >1000 issues closed by a bot, there must be some that are still valid but no one actually looked at it.
Re: Technology preview: Sealed sender for Signal
#86Here's an idea, Signal, how about removing the requirement that everything be tied to phone numbers? BBM back in the day worked great with their unique "PINs", that could be shared by QR code, and I could reject an "add" request.
This is the "Go y u no generics" of secure messaging. The answer is always the same: Phone numbers bootstrap a workable social network for ordinary users. Signal's goal is to transform all ordinary messaging into secure messaging. Not elite secure messaging. All messaging . The most popular messaging application in the world uses phone numbers for identifiers (as, obviously, does SMS). That's the goal they've set for…
Re: Technology preview: Sealed sender for Signal
#87Two observations: 1. You should look into what other messengers do with sender/receiver pairs information. One very popular competing messenger logs pairs permanently, serverside, in order to make UI features work. 2. One of the least popular attributes of Signal (on Hacker News, at least) is its lack of federation and ability to interoperate with third-party clients. This feature is a pretty crystalline example of t…
On the other hand, the point of the feature is to partially compensate for a privacy weakness that exists in part because of the lack of federation/decentralization.
If you’re trying to have truly secure communications with someone, having a single party that could theoretically be logging the sender and receiver identity (as easily personally identifiable phone numbers!), timestamp, and sender/receiver IP addresses of every single message is a serious weakness. There‘s a reason people on this forum were up in arms over the NSA’s metadata collection program even though it was limited to the same type of information. As an example – while I’m on the subject of the NSA – if Signal had been around in 2013 and Edward Snowden had used it to provide his leaks to journalists, the metadata of who he was contacting would have been almost as dangerous to him, should the NSA have obtained it, as the actual contents of the messages. For a somewhat less dramatic example, the same would apply to the various Trump administration officials who have been leaking to journalists, apparently using encrypted messaging apps including Signal.
Of course, this is a hard problem in general and decentralization wouldn’t be the whole solution. Indeed, it wouldn’t even be the start of the solution. In the above examples, the most important first step Signal could take to protect the leakers’ privacy would not be any kind of decentralization, but simply allowing users to create accounts without a phone number, allowing them to communicate with an identity not trivially linked to their real-life identity. Ideally they would then access these accounts only through Tor, disable push notifications to avoid leaking identity through push tokens, and avoid accessing them at the same time and through the same pipe as their normal accounts (if applicable), to prevent the server from trivially correlating accounts using traffic analysis; the second step Signal could take would be building those measures into the app itself, since they’re very easy to screw up if done by hand.
However, this scheme, even if implemented well, would still have some weaknesses. For one, the anonymization Tor provides can theoretically be compromised, especially with the funds of the kinds of adversaries that would be in a position to compromise the Signal central servers. More importantly, even if the adversary can’t directly identify the parties communicating, they can still build a web of who’s contacting who, when, and how often, information that can be a source of important insights – including the potential to lead to deanonymization.
And then there’s the case of “everyone else”: people who aren’t going to take drastic measures to hide their identities, who probably don’t need to, but would still like their communications to stay private, including metadata. To stick with the same scenario, consider the internal communications among the journalists at a news organization after something has been leaked to them (or really, in general). From the types of people communicating with each other and the amount of communication, you might be at least able to guess, say, when a major bombshell is about to drop, as well as who exactly is involved. As another example, consider the anonymous op-ed from an official in the Trump administration that the New York Times published last month. The paper has openly acknowledged three top employees as knowing the identity of the author, but learning the names and roles of lower-level employees involved could provide clues as to who the author is. (Of course, the New York Times is largely shielded by legal protections and so probably doesn’t have to take extreme technical measures, but that’s not the point.)
That’s where decentralization comes in. If the New York Times could host its own Signal server, they could attempt to protect that metadata themselves rather than relying on a third party. First consider the case of internal communications. They would still have to worry about an adversary performing traffic analysis at the transport layer, but for internal communications, this is no worse than with a private server than a central one, and sometimes better (if the transport path is trusted); and in general, traffic analysis doesn’t leak as much metadata and is easier to mitigate. Then there’s the risk of their own server being compromised. Admittedly, when it comes to some types of attacks (hacking, as opposed to legal threats), for the Times and most similar organizations, having their own server would probably be a regression rather than an improvement, since their IT staff doesn’t possess the same level of security expertise as Open Whisper Systems. But that isn’t the case for every organization that has secrets worth keeping, and of course hosting your own server would always be an option, not a requirement. On the other hand, they would at least be able to force adversaries to target and actively attack their organization individually, rather than hacking one centralized service and getting everything. In practice I think that would be a significant deterrent, especially for smaller organizations.
What about communications with a leaker? Well, there are a few possibilities, depending on the type of decentralization. In all cases, the news organization could have some sort of mechanism to give leakers accounts on their server (or better, a separate server set up for the purpose). If the system were based on federation, the leaker could alternately communicate to them from an account on a server that they trusted. Obtaining a trusted server wouldn’t be a difficult task for technical users like Snowden, but more so for others. I’d prefer more of a peer-to-peer design where a cell phone or laptop could be its own peer and communicate directly with someone else on their server, without specifically needing to have an account on that server.
In any case, traffic analysis would be much more of a threat for a leaker than with a central server, since knowledge that they were connecting to a news organization’s private server would be much more revealing than merely knowledge they were using Signal. I admit that’s sort of an inherent disadvantage to decentralized designs – but it’s one that can be mitigated using Tor or other types of proxy setups. It’s much harder for a user to mitigate the risks of a central server.
Edit: And for the record, the new sealed sender feature will reduce the risk of metadata collection, but a compromised server probably wouldn't find it hard to correlate a user's anonymous message-sending connections with their main authenticated connection. In many cases, IP address would be enough; in others, you could look at the pattern of messages being sent back and forth in a conversation.
Re: Technology preview: Sealed sender for Signal
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is the "Go y u no generics" of secure messaging. The answer is always the same: Phone numbers bootstrap a workable social network for ordinary users. Signal's goal is to transform all ordinary messaging into secure messaging. Not elite secure messaging. All messaging . The most popular messaging application in the world uses phone numbers for identifiers (as, obviously, does SMS). That's the goal they've set for…
I see you explaining and re-explaining the same point throughout this thread: "ordinary users" are used to using phone numbers as identifiers in the messaging apps Signal is trying to replace. That's an answer to the question: why does Signal default to a phone number-based social graph? What it doesn't answer is: why can't Signal also provide an option to add a contact using something other than a phone number? Bold…
Re: Technology preview: Sealed sender for Signal
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
I see you explaining and re-explaining the same point throughout this thread: "ordinary users" are used to using phone numbers as identifiers in the messaging apps Signal is trying to replace. That's an answer to the question: why does Signal default to a phone number-based social graph? What it doesn't answer is: why can't Signal also provide an option to add a contact using something other than a phone number? Bold…
I don't understand the complexity or see the blind spot. Your use case is not a priority for them right now.
(1) allocating developer time and organizational priorities; or,
(2) a technical incompatibility with Signal's existing, phone number-based model?
Based on your response I'm inferring (1), but I'm frustrated that this is never directly answered when the topic comes up.
Re: Technology preview: Sealed sender for Signal
#90Here's an idea, Signal, how about removing the requirement that everything be tied to phone numbers? BBM back in the day worked great with their unique "PINs", that could be shared by QR code, and I could reject an "add" request.
This is the "Go y u no generics" of secure messaging. The answer is always the same: Phone numbers bootstrap a workable social network for ordinary users. Signal's goal is to transform all ordinary messaging into secure messaging. Not elite secure messaging. All messaging . The most popular messaging application in the world uses phone numbers for identifiers (as, obviously, does SMS). That's the goal they've set for…
Yes, it is – and it turns out that Go 2 will be adding generics.
Before that, you could have said "If generics are super-important to you, use Rust." But it turns out you can have both Go and generics, and (if you prefer Go over Rust for other reasons) that's even better than having to pick one or the other. The designers made a choice to omit generics in the initial version due to difficulties reconciling it with their goals of simplicity and ease of use, but (unlike some posters on forums like this) they never claimed that generics were fundamentally bad or that Go would never add them. Now that they have had time to think about how to work generics into the design without compromising their other goals, they are planning to do so.
I hope Signal does something similar.