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Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

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Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#111

Post by jessriedel »

matt4077 wrote: post #108
Ptyx wrote: post #89

Reminds me that Kierkegaard has written about Google: "A revolutionary age is an age of action; ours is the age of advertisement and publicity. In the present age a rebellion is, of all things, the most unthinkable. Such an expression of strength would seem ridiculous to the calculating intelligence of our times. On the other hand a political virtuoso might bring off a feat almost as remarkable. He might write a mani…

If this is aiming to invoke the tired "virtue signalling" cliché, it's rather vacuous. Kierkegaard's alternative was an armed rebellion. Are you seriously advocating for civil war, and dismissing all peaceful methods of achieving change? That gets to the heart of what's wrong with the concept as it is used by the 4chan crowd these days: The success of democracy is exactly the possibility to effect change without shou…

I don't super disagree, but note that one can argue for a mechanistic explanation of human behavior, with important implications about what we should conclude from that behavior, without implicitly endorsing different behavior or otherwise making an ethical claim.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#112

Post by bilbo0s »

matt4077 wrote: post #108
Ptyx wrote: post #89

Reminds me that Kierkegaard has written about Google: "A revolutionary age is an age of action; ours is the age of advertisement and publicity. In the present age a rebellion is, of all things, the most unthinkable. Such an expression of strength would seem ridiculous to the calculating intelligence of our times. On the other hand a political virtuoso might bring off a feat almost as remarkable. He might write a mani…

If this is aiming to invoke the tired "virtue signalling" cliché, it's rather vacuous. Kierkegaard's alternative was an armed rebellion. Are you seriously advocating for civil war, and dismissing all peaceful methods of achieving change? That gets to the heart of what's wrong with the concept as it is used by the 4chan crowd these days: The success of democracy is exactly the possibility to effect change without shou…

>The success of democracy is exactly the possibility to effect change without shouldering grave personal risks...

True. In effect, we have a civil war every 4 years. During these civil wars there is zero personal risk to the participants. And even still, the largest bloc of us chooses not to participate.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#113

Post by matt4077 »

abnry wrote: post #84
nostrademons wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the popular unrest facing both corporations & governments today is people learning that conflict gets results . The logic goes that "Well, Andy Rubin managed to exercise his threat to sue to get a $90M severance package, and he doesn't even work for the company anymore. We do work for the company, so we are going to exercise our power as employees to put pressure on the company to not do this again , so that…

I don't have an opinion on whether what google did was good or bad. I'm just a point of "outrage fatigue," especially with protests that come off as gimmicky. Maybe pushback against google is appropriate, maybe it's effective, but I am sure fatigued by this kind of stuff.

I don't understand... Did any protesters walk through your office? Are you having trouble getting GMAil support?

Because if, as professed, have no opinion one way or the other, I fail to see how you can be annoyed by something you only read about (after clicking on links presumably informing you what to expect). Are you also annoyed by the weather report? Because that seems to have become a daily staple.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#114

Post by matt4077 »

tw04 wrote: post #7
rayvy wrote: post #3

Someone with more info please correct me: But from what I read it sounds as if Google had to pay him the $90MM+, else be sued by him right? Because if they didn't pay him, he'd sue, then they [Google] would have to prove that he [Rubin] acted maliciously (or whatever), which would've been hard (if not impossible) to do, given that the accuser said they were coerced (not forced). So it seems as if Google's hands were…

Furthermore, correct me if I misread, but what he did wrong was have consensual sexual relations with a subordinate, right? And then he was fired for it (which he should be). And they protected him how? Paying him the severance package he was owed? I'm not following if that's all correct.

The linked NYT article states pretty clearly that she was accusing him of coercion, and that Google determined that accusation to have merit. This article by buzzfeed adds that there was a second such allegation, from a different woman:

> following an investigation into an allegation that he had coerced another employee to perform oral sex on him.

To not acknowledge these facts clearly stated in every article strikes me as bad faith rather than confusion.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#115

Post by geofft »

roenxi wrote: post #100
danso wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that the protesters believe that Google erred too much in favor of Andy Rubin (and other protected execs). A protest makes these concerns known to Google -- and just as importantly, to the public -- and ostensibly reduces the chances that Google will have a different mindset when a similar situation arises in the future. In any case, the article describes this particular walkout as part of an ongoing/emergin…

That paragraph you quote from the article is extremely vague though, is that what the protesters have actually said? 'Greater employee oversight into product decisions' is particularly .. what is that? The employees have veto power by majority vote? An individual employee can delay the project for a 3 month review? The project team chooses their own manager? If they want a measurable change they need an articulation…

> I don't like their chances either way, management will persist in making management decisions even if they need to fire people to do so

I'm not sure this is true - Google's legendarily high salaries and retention incentives are high because management has high demand for good people and specifically for people who have been at the company for a while. They might fire people, yes, but they won't do so casually. They might give in to the protesters out of rational self-interest. So I think the protestors' chances are better with this approach than with politely trying to change management's mind by debate.

(I also suspect that there are plenty of other Rubins in management, and rational debate that Google was too nice to Rubin is not ever going to be convincing to other rich abusers.)

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#116

Post by beatgammit »

dragonwriter wrote: post #29
kerng wrote: post #18

Google could have given him the 90 million but at the same time still call out his behavior. But what happened was that Google only said how awesome everything is and hence in fact protected and worse, basically endorsed, his behavior. I find it good that Google employees stand up here. I'm already wondering what will Google do about that other guy who gives back rubs in interviews? He got similar support and is stil…

> Google could have given him the 90 million but at the same time still call out his behavior. Probably not; mutual non-disparagement clauses are extremely common in executive contracts. Breaking that would have been the same, in terms of kind of litigation risk, as not paying the $90 million.

My NDA with a client of mine works the same way, they're very common.

The question is whether it's enforceable. For my NDA it doesn't matter because I don't want to go to court, but for this situation it's much more likely to go there and probably end up with an even larger settlement.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#117

Post by lovich »

leereeves wrote: post #52
inetknght wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The end result probably looks like us burning most of the modern world to the ground, literally The end does not justify the means. So what good is a society built on prejudice, harassment, and corruption? If you can sweep controversy under the rug until such time that it's convenient then good luck ever getting change to occur for the better. > by getting rid of the organization and making any people behind it ano…

What good is a society without due process or presumption of innocence, where a disputed allegation would be punished without proof?

Do companies apply any of that to employees unless they are a protected class? If they want you gone you're gone for whatever reason they make up if they even make one. You don't get to have a presumption of innocence or due process.

Why shouldnt companies be treated the same way by their employees?

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#118

Post by matt4077 »

tw04 wrote: post #88
olliej wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he coerced them into it - if you have a position of power, and you say "have sex with me", effectively in exchange for your treatment/employment in the company - I can't recall if Rubin was the burning man "sex or no job" guy, or that was another - that is sex discrimination and/or harassment. I doubt Rubin would have had the same behaviour with male subordinates, so that's a difference in treatment based on gend…

>No, he coerced them into it - if you have a position of power, and you say "have sex with me", effectively in exchange for your treatment/employment in the company Unless you've got info beyond what was in the times report, you're making a TON of assumptions about the nature of the relationship. As I said, it's wrong and he should be fired for having relations with a subordinate no matter what the circumstances were…

Is there something you enjoy about explicit stories of sexual assault and coercion that would make you want to force victims to see the intimate details of their trauma published for all to see?

Because that seems to go somewhat beyond the usual standard. And it wouldn't even be helpful, unless you follow it up with a demand of DNA samples and expert witnesses.

FWIW: the parent comment wasn't assuming anything–they just more or less gave you the definition of coercion.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#119

Post by Mountain_Skies »

abnry wrote: post #84
nostrademons wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the popular unrest facing both corporations & governments today is people learning that conflict gets results . The logic goes that "Well, Andy Rubin managed to exercise his threat to sue to get a $90M severance package, and he doesn't even work for the company anymore. We do work for the company, so we are going to exercise our power as employees to put pressure on the company to not do this again , so that…

I don't have an opinion on whether what google did was good or bad. I'm just a point of "outrage fatigue," especially with protests that come off as gimmicky. Maybe pushback against google is appropriate, maybe it's effective, but I am sure fatigued by this kind of stuff.

Posts on my local subreddit asking where the next protest is are becoming increasingly common. They're not asking for details on specific protests, just want to know when there is a protest scheduled for pretty much anything. It's becoming mostly a social event for many. It'll be interesting to see how people whose social interactions depend on protest culture fare when the current trend fades away.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#120

Post by [deleted] »

matt4077 wrote: post #108
Ptyx wrote: post #89

Reminds me that Kierkegaard has written about Google: "A revolutionary age is an age of action; ours is the age of advertisement and publicity. In the present age a rebellion is, of all things, the most unthinkable. Such an expression of strength would seem ridiculous to the calculating intelligence of our times. On the other hand a political virtuoso might bring off a feat almost as remarkable. He might write a mani…

If this is aiming to invoke the tired "virtue signalling" cliché, it's rather vacuous. Kierkegaard's alternative was an armed rebellion. Are you seriously advocating for civil war, and dismissing all peaceful methods of achieving change? That gets to the heart of what's wrong with the concept as it is used by the 4chan crowd these days: The success of democracy is exactly the possibility to effect change without shou…

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