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US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

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Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#141

I think it's probably still a little too far outside most peoples' comfort zone, but I think the future of voting will be 100% electronic with the capability of being instantly recallable. The voting system will allow me to see exactly how my vote was tallied after the fact. From what I have read this is not desirable for the fact that people will more easily be able to sell their vote because they can prove to their…

No the primary problem isn't selling votes. The primary problem is fabricating votes or people trying to destabilize an election by claiming they voted for someone else. If even 100 people come out and said their votes were changed what do we do? Re-run the election? Just use paper ballots. This isn't that hard.

Regarding "rerunning the election". As long as the process has integrity there will be a statistically insignificant number of people blaming the system for incorrectly tallying their votes. We have that today even though we can't see the results.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#142
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's essentially no one saying there should be no identity verification, just like there's no meaningful voter impersonation fraud. The complaint is the fairness of the burden to obtain acceptable ID, for voting. In Alabama, over a dozen driver's license office closures mean people in overwhelmingly black counties had a vastly high burden to obtain ID than people living in predominately white counties. There are a…

> Anyway, people have a right to vote. It is not a privilege. Actually, in US, it is a privilege. Look up the Constitution - the original one doesn't define any right to vote at all (which was a necessary component of the 3/5th Compromise); all it says is that the states must have a "republican form of government". And all subsequent amendments specify what can't be used as a basis to deny the right to vote. Aside fr…

Well there are the fourteenth and fifteenth amendments and the voting rights act of 1965 that do establish the right to vote. But, yes those have all been significantly weakened by the judiciary, including to allow permanent disenfranchisement of convicted felons, which seems explicitly against the text of the fifteenth amendment.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because voter coersion and vote buying attacks have historically been the largest attacks against the voting system. If you can prove your vote to yourself, you can prove your vote to someone else unless you get into complex zero knowledge proofs that the average voter can't understand (which opens it's can of worms).

All it takes to prove a vote is a camera. Which practically everybody has in their pocket these days, even on the cheap $10 feature phones.

OK, that isn't encoded into the voting system though.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#144
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't work like that. The poor have ID. Sure, it isn't easy, but they get ID because they need it for damn near everything. For example, you mentioned "work hours". If they are legally working, they have ID. If they get any sort of welfare, they have ID. If they smoke or drink, they have ID.

“Rates of identification-ownership are highest among White individuals, while other ethnic groups disproportionately lack necessary photo ID. Thirteen percent of Blacks, 10 percent of Hispanics, but only 5 percent of Whites lack photographic identification. “Lower-income individuals are less likely to have photo ID. Twelve percent of adults living in a household with less than $25,000 annual income lack photo ID, com…

There is a huge flaw inherent in that study.

It is assumed that the people claiming to be Americans without ID are in fact Americans without ID. It's kind of hard to verify this without ID, eh? The given percentages are in the ballpark for estimates of illegal aliens, meaning that these might be people who aren't supposed to have an American ID and in fact aren't supposed to vote.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#145
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Rates of identification-ownership are highest among White individuals, while other ethnic groups disproportionately lack necessary photo ID. Thirteen percent of Blacks, 10 percent of Hispanics, but only 5 percent of Whites lack photographic identification. “Lower-income individuals are less likely to have photo ID. Twelve percent of adults living in a household with less than $25,000 annual income lack photo ID, com…

There is a huge flaw inherent in that study. It is assumed that the people claiming to be Americans without ID are in fact Americans without ID. It's kind of hard to verify this without ID, eh? The given percentages are in the ballpark for estimates of illegal aliens, meaning that these might be people who aren't supposed to have an American ID and in fact aren't supposed to vote.

Illegal aliens are largely white Europeans that overstay their visa?

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#147
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Rates of identification-ownership are highest among White individuals, while other ethnic groups disproportionately lack necessary photo ID. Thirteen percent of Blacks, 10 percent of Hispanics, but only 5 percent of Whites lack photographic identification. “Lower-income individuals are less likely to have photo ID. Twelve percent of adults living in a household with less than $25,000 annual income lack photo ID, com…

There is a huge flaw inherent in that study. It is assumed that the people claiming to be Americans without ID are in fact Americans without ID. It's kind of hard to verify this without ID, eh? The given percentages are in the ballpark for estimates of illegal aliens, meaning that these might be people who aren't supposed to have an American ID and in fact aren't supposed to vote.

Illegal immigrants are only about 3% of the total population of the country. The vast majority are Hispanic. This could potentially explain the Hispanic numbers but couldn’t possibly account for the others. 13% of blacks being illegal immigrants isn’t in the ballpark, it’s not even the same sport.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyway, people have a right to vote. It is not a privilege. Actually, in US, it is a privilege. Look up the Constitution - the original one doesn't define any right to vote at all (which was a necessary component of the 3/5th Compromise); all it says is that the states must have a "republican form of government". And all subsequent amendments specify what can't be used as a basis to deny the right to vote. Aside fr…

Well there are the fourteenth and fifteenth amendments and the voting rights act of 1965 that do establish the right to vote. But, yes those have all been significantly weakened by the judiciary, including to allow permanent disenfranchisement of convicted felons, which seems explicitly against the text of the fifteenth amendment.

> Well there are the fourteenth

The only bit in the 14th that explicitly addresses voting doesn't establish a right to vote. It says that if the states deny the right to vote to some male citizens above a certain age, then their representation in Congress is proportionally reduced. Note that this mechanism implies that the states can, nevertheless, opt into such an arrangement. So, if anything, it establishes that there's no right to vote.

If you're referring to the Equal Protection Clause. It does not explicitly establish a right to vote, either. It has some effects on voting rights - in particular, it was used to restrict poll taxes in state elections (since the 24th only applied to federal elections). However, the relevant court decisions explained that it was not because it infringed on some inherent right to vote that all citizens possess, but rather because it was unduly discriminatory (on the basis of "the affluence of the voter or payment of any fee").

> and fifteenth amendments

That one says you can't deny the right to vote based on race. Similarly, 19th amendment does the same wrt gender, and 26th does the same wrt age for those 18+.

However, none of these establish a right to vote, per se. For example, if a state denies the right to vote on the grounds that are not related to race, they are not in violation of the 15th.

> and the voting rights act of 1965

That one is more of an implementation of the above, although it goes further wrt placing the burden of proof on the states in many cases.

But, in any case, it's just a law, and as such it cannot establish a fundamental right (since Congress can overturn it at any time).

> those have all been significantly weakened by the judiciary

Given that Harper v. Virginia State Board of Elections was one of the massive expansions of the right to vote, I don't think that's a reasonable assertion. Courts have given, and courts have taken away. If Constitution were explicit on this subject, we wouldn't have this back-and-forth.

> allow permanent disenfranchisement of convicted felons, which seems explicitly against the text of the fifteenth amendment.

Convicted felons are not a race. Yes, there is a racial disparity when it comes to such laws in practice; but the amendment doesn't prohibit any restrictions that result in a racial disparity - only those that are specifically using race as a basis.

Voting Rights Act, as amended in 1982, is the law that prohibits restrictions on the basis of their results, rather than their intent. But even with VRA, a mere disproportionality is not sufficient to declare a restriction unlawful. And, of course, it's still just a law, and therefore cannot provide any fundamental guarantees like the Constitution does.

So, in practice, there's no universal constitutional right to vote for citizens in the United States on the federal level. There's a patchwork of protections, but even when taken in combination, it does not amount to such a right.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately this has a lot of opposition behind it from republican voters who believe in kooky mark of the beast theories, and concerns about federal government surveillance. You can be completely certain they would fan those flames hard if a proposal like this ever saw the light of day.

Umn, it seems to me that most of the opposition to requiring ID for voting (just a state issued ID) are liberals talking about disenfranchising the poor. Most of the poor already have ID, and beyond a few of the horror stories some seem to have getting ID, it's still not a bad idea. In the end, you have to register to vote, and in most states you do so with the same agencies that make Identifications. Requiring an ID…

The reason for it to be a federally issued ID is because it has to be 1) free to obtain, for this scheme to not amount to a de facto poll tax, and 2) easy to obtain, to avoid selective suppression of constituencies by e.g. removing offices that issue them in certain areas.

States have been proven by experience to be willing to do both. AFAIK, all states that have implemented some form of voter ID to date collect fees for issuance of any eligible IDs. And there are numerous cases of states closing or moving DMVs and similar agencies, or mucking around with vote schedule, to deliberately suppress some voters (a recent example which is particularly glaring because the state explicitly admitted its motivation: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/north-carolina-voter-id/).

Thus, the only way to ensure that voter ID would not be discriminatory in practice, is to have feds run the whole thing, in a way that guarantees non-discrimination - which means it has to be free, and it has to be easy to get. If you truly believe that voter ID is necessary for election security, then this is the compromise deal that you'll have to accept for us liberals to be onboard with that (keep in mind that most of us don't believe that there's any real issue to be solved by having voter ID, so any such support would be mainly symbolic in nature - and you'll have show good faith in courting it).

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#150
post #99
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please explain for non-americans what's the actual problem with havinf ID in US? Is it like most people only have driver license and ones who don't have a car (because they are poor) don't need one or it's more complicated? Where I'm from everybody is required by law to have one from the age of 14 and gets it for free for the first time. You just can't have anything done without id and tax identification code…

Americans have a historical paranoia about the government tracking its citizens. I don't think it's entirely unjustifiable, but clearly, that ship has sailed a long time ago. At this point, the federal government already has so much information on the citizens, it could effectively implement a national ID scheme (and pretty much everyone will admit to that if you phrase the question right). So the remaining oppositio…

Providing a secure national ID would do much more than just stop most kinds of voter fraud. It would stop identity theft.

Stopping identity theft would reduce the cost of banking, including all kinds of credit, bringing consumer interest rates closer to non-consumer ones. Stopping identity theft would quickly cause the arrest of most fugitives, both immigration-related and otherwise. Stopping identity theft would reduce medical errors; today your treatment can be affected by an identity thief. (the doctors think you have drug-seeking behavior, a genetic condition, a disease, or issues with violence toward hospital staff... and this changes how they treat you)

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