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In Amazon Go, no one thinks I'm stealing

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Re: In Amazon Go, no one thinks I'm stealing

#71

Post by netsharc »

ackidacki wrote: post #55
tyfon wrote: post #47

I wonder how long it will take before they employ regression algorithms to screen those entering the shop and deny those deemed "not safe". They would probably be like the police crime prevention algorithms in that they would inherently be biased towards the same prejudices as the humans in such jobs. Profile a specific group of people and that group will be arrested more than those not in that group and the algorith…

Why would it be needed? If someone enters with a credit card on file you can charge anything broken or taken out.

I just realized that Amazon Go stores are (designed to be) theft-resistant, anyone want to sneak something under their shirt, well, doesn't matter, the cameras still saw it and will still charge them.

It would make a funny gag, I imagine the store employees would still approach you if you did the above, because they also won't have overriden their if X then Y programming.

Re: In Amazon Go, no one thinks I'm stealing

#72

Post by neil_s »

netsharc wrote: post #71
ackidacki wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be needed? If someone enters with a credit card on file you can charge anything broken or taken out.

I just realized that Amazon Go stores are (designed to be) theft-resistant, anyone want to sneak something under their shirt, well, doesn't matter, the cameras still saw it and will still charge them. It would make a funny gag, I imagine the store employees would still approach you if you did the above, because they also won't have overriden their if X then Y programming.

When some friends and I visited the Amazon Go store in Seattle, we tried multiple different ways to fool the cameras, such as putting the bag over the item on the shelf, or picking it up from the shelf, placing it back on the wrong aisle, and then another person picking it up. We mentioned it openly to the employees. Employees in the store couldn't care less, they were just busy restocking and making the aisles look organized. There must have been human review of our movements on camera though, because my friends who didn't mess around got their receipts immediately when they left the shop whereas mine took half an hour to arrive.

Re: In Amazon Go, no one thinks I'm stealing

#73

Post by cbg0 »

arrrg wrote: post #68
cbg0 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Racial profiling is being criticized despite being effective. You got anything to back up this blanket statement?

How and why do you have to back it up? It’s just a type of argument that is actually quite common with its basic idea being that just because something is effective, doesn’t mean it’s right or just to do. Transferred to racial profiling the argument is this: Even if racial profiling is effective, employing it is still ethically indefensible and plain wrong. Put another way: Even if we agree on a goal (e.g. catching m…

> How and why do you have to back it up?

With arguments, and to support your point of view.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I wanted some real evidence that racial profiling is effective (as well as how effective it is), I wasn't looking to get into an argument about the morality of the issue.

Re: In Amazon Go, no one thinks I'm stealing

#74

Post by freeone3000 »

tyfon wrote: post #47

I wonder how long it will take before they employ regression algorithms to screen those entering the shop and deny those deemed "not safe". They would probably be like the police crime prevention algorithms in that they would inherently be biased towards the same prejudices as the humans in such jobs. Profile a specific group of people and that group will be arrested more than those not in that group and the algorith…

You need to scan an amazon app generated QR code to enter. Your credit card is chargeable once you enter, it's impossible to steal.

Re: In Amazon Go, no one thinks I'm stealing

#75

Post by bfung »

moonka wrote: post #17
bfung wrote: post #16

This is an interesting topic; The automation removed a lot of the human interaction, creating a better experience for the customer. In the short term. However, by removing a lot of humans from the shopping interactions, it allows the removed humans to never learn from their mistakes, to stay isolated in their own views. Will this actually make racism better or worse in the long run, as there isn't automation to "fix"…

>However, by removing a lot of humans from the shopping interactions, it allows the removed humans to never learn from their mistakes, to stay isolated in their own views. Relying on shopping interactions to teach these humans places a huge burden on the people they make these mistakes on. Sometimes I'm not looking to be a teachable moment, sometimes I just want to get my shopping done (or get a cab etc).

Sure, not every moment in life is a teachable or eureka moment. But the more chances people have to interact, the more chances to gain a better understanding of each other.

Without even the opportunity to interact, that divide and chance to learn is zero.

Maybe the 1 out of 100 times, you go to the supermarket, and are feeling good, and feel like just saying hi and do some small talk to the cashier... while it may not change the world instantly, incremental progress is better than lack of it.

Re: In Amazon Go, no one thinks I'm stealing

#76

Post by scarejunba »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #20
esotericn wrote: post #8

Profiling sucks. In this case though, I'd say you're simply trading one injustice for another. You go from the ephemeral experience of having a few underpaid lackeys mistrust you, to having an eternal database of everything you buy owned by a third party. Then again, it's getting pretty ridiculous everywhere. The local supermarkets around me - they've gradually stripped real checkout operators away and replaced them…

Not only that but you also raise the requirements for grocery / department store shopping. In principle all you need to shop at most stores is cash and being able to get to the physical location of the store. With Amazon Go you need a smartphone with a data plan, an amazon account, and a bank account. Even in America not everyone has all of those, or even any one of those. I personally spent a few years as an adult w…

Dude, Amazon owns Whole Foods. The "you have to have money to use this store" market already exists.

Re: In Amazon Go, no one thinks I'm stealing

#77

Post by bfung »

salvar wrote: post #42
bfung wrote: post #16

This is an interesting topic; The automation removed a lot of the human interaction, creating a better experience for the customer. In the short term. However, by removing a lot of humans from the shopping interactions, it allows the removed humans to never learn from their mistakes, to stay isolated in their own views. Will this actually make racism better or worse in the long run, as there isn't automation to "fix"…

I think it's better in the short term, and the long term. Those removed humans have plenty of other opportunities to address their prejudices, and profiling innocent shoppers based on their skin color isn't actually necessary.

>Those removed humans have plenty of other opportunities to address their prejudices

Where do they have the opportunity to address their prejudices? How can they understand if they never have the chance to talk to the other side, or have the other side be able to engage them?

With the automation, the semi-forced interaction is gone. Humans are "lazy" by default and those situations won't happen.

Re: In Amazon Go, no one thinks I'm stealing

#79

Post by salvar »

bfung wrote: post #77
salvar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's better in the short term, and the long term. Those removed humans have plenty of other opportunities to address their prejudices, and profiling innocent shoppers based on their skin color isn't actually necessary.

>Those removed humans have plenty of other opportunities to address their prejudices Where do they have the opportunity to address their prejudices? How can they understand if they never have the chance to talk to the other side, or have the other side be able to engage them? With the automation, the semi-forced interaction is gone. Humans are "lazy" by default and those situations won't happen.

> How can they understand if they never have the chance to talk to the other side

Are you saying that profiling people in stores is literally the only chance people have to talk to "the other side"?

How about they use any other available opportunity for human interaction in any other situation in their lives to address their prejudices?

Re: In Amazon Go, no one thinks I'm stealing

#80

Post by lotsofpulp »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #20
esotericn wrote: post #8

Profiling sucks. In this case though, I'd say you're simply trading one injustice for another. You go from the ephemeral experience of having a few underpaid lackeys mistrust you, to having an eternal database of everything you buy owned by a third party. Then again, it's getting pretty ridiculous everywhere. The local supermarkets around me - they've gradually stripped real checkout operators away and replaced them…

Not only that but you also raise the requirements for grocery / department store shopping. In principle all you need to shop at most stores is cash and being able to get to the physical location of the store. With Amazon Go you need a smartphone with a data plan, an amazon account, and a bank account. Even in America not everyone has all of those, or even any one of those. I personally spent a few years as an adult w…

The world is already like that, has been and always will be. Different stores, hotels, bars, and restaurants have different price points depending on the target clientele. People in society want that price discrimination, from the school districts they buy their houses in, to the restaurants they eat at, to the places they go for vacation.

The newness comes from how good we can get at stratifying society, based on databases that never forget and precise calculations about worth and future potential. Also, with a widening income/wealth gap and trend towards urban living, you need something more than physical space to separate the classes.

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