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Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

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Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#211

Post by jplayer01 »

ThePhysicist wrote: post #135
keiferski wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Prenzlauerberg is known as an upper-middle class/family/“safe” area, not a haven for artists or counterculture. 2. A prosthetics company is a far cry from the omnipresent, omnipotent entity that is Google. Everyone on planet Earth knows what Google is. Many people take issue with their behavior.

1. Without wanting to offend I think it's quite funny that you think so, because before Prenzlauer Berg became what it is today it was one of the most prominent "art districts" in Berlin, and many artists had their workshops there ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenzlauer_Berg ). Now as you say it's mostly an area where hip and affluent families live in the many luxuriously renovated old buildings (Altbau). Seems ge…

> the city could profit from it.

This point of view is precisely the problem and why companies like Google aren't welcome in places like where they tried to open this campus. Money isn't everything.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#212

Post by usrusr »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #195
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> help diversify the tech ecosystem in Berlin and give them access to facilities and other resources. Another way of looking at that, is "gentrify the vibrant neighbourhood by trucking in techbros to displace the artists". It's not new (1) I don't necessarily agree with that framing, but it is understandable and coherent, not a misunderstanding 1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18282143

"gentrify the vibrant neighbourhood by trucking in techbros to displace the artists" Or bring very high paying jobs that Germany desperately needs, and allow great students to actually do something with their education, which would in turn enable a poor neighbourhood to thrive with ancilliary businesses, restaurants, taxis etc. etc..

It's not that simple. For Berlin, counterculture vibe is an economic resource, more important even than being the seat of government. It's what lures companies like Google there in the first place. Google wanted to be in Kreuzberg instead of Mitte, just like they wanted to be in Meatpacking instead of Midtown. Many companies are content settling down in neighboring districts, well within car-less commute range from Kreuzberg, but Google, in an impressive act demonstration of bad judgment, thought that with enough money they could just buy right into the heart of it. Even on a strictly economic level, it makes perfectly sense for the city to not want that to happen, in the same way that Rome would be stupid to allow the construction of hotels on the ancient forum even though they would surely "create jobs".

The good thing is that Google eventually understood their error (you can't buy the friendship of people who will despise you for trying) because any attempt to achieve this through regulation would have been a total shitshow for everyone involved.

It's basically the same story as the Chelsea Market building, but with gritty Berlin punks instead of cute but toothless Greenwich Village and in an environment where even rich conservatives agree with the left that money cannot overrule everything else. It's really not surprising that it turned out differently.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#213

Post by wbl »

hnzix wrote: post #207
wbl wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are Tokyo housing prices? Vienna's cost of living is kept down by large amounts of social housing, etc. Gentrification is a side effect of not building housing.

> Gentrification is a side effect of not building housing. The pattern I've seen (excluding SF) is that an arty area becomes trendy because of its culture, then a bunch of real estate developers kick out all the artists to build high-density housing while bringing in residential zoning laws (no live music etc). The artists flee somewhere cheaper, build up the culture, rinse and repeat, until you end up with somewhere…

Imagine if we permitted apartments in Forrest Hills.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#214

Post by wallflower »

Sargos wrote: post #193
antt wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When they move into your town and your rents double you can't just be retrained. Why?

It's not a politically correct thing to say but most people aren't smart enough to work in tech. It's a fairly top tier field unless you're doing something really, really basic.

And not everyone working in tech has to work at a FAANG. Or wants to even try to pass their hiring interviews. There is plenty of work for utility programmers like me in all industries. Yes, you won’t be able to humble brag about your salary but we all do pretty well relative to the median.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#216

Post by VonGallifrey »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #196
eigenvector wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mutual exclusivity is valid. Being able to do stuff that requires a lot of time and doesn't make a lot of money (i.e. art) requires a low cost of living. Adding a bunch of people making $200k+ into a neighbourhood does the opposite of that, very rapidly and very predictably.

Berlin is big, and Germany is much bigger, and there are tons of places for artists. Even in Berlin.

The issue is that Google wanted to go to the very specific and small space in Berlin where tons of artists are. Berlin is "big" (although not as big as you might think), so why would Google need to be in Kreuzberg when it can be ANYWHERE else.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#217

Post by woodpanel »

killjoywashere wrote: post #192
woodpanel wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's gentrificators that become anti-gentrification activists once they secured their gain. The "gain" in this case is: 1) Getting to transform a neighbourhood (that you weren't a part of before) however it fancies you, while simultaneously prohibiting those that come after you from doing the same. 2) locking in the low rents you have to pay. While keeping supply of housing artificially low you're thus increasing the…

> It is not uncommon that one neighbour tenant in the same house pays two times your rent In the US, it is not uncommon that one neighbor homeowner next door pays two times your mortgage. I would be interested in your story about home-ownership, but difference in pricing due to time of arrival doesn't seem like a differentiator between renting and buying.

if I get you right, you want to know the reasons why I‘m in favor of low-ownership rates. On top of my head:

- Economics of scale: housing companies provide more quality/ € than your landlord that owns one flat or even what most owner-occupiers can reasonably provide for themself.

- Real Estate is a Commodity, yes. Owning that is an investment, yes. But living in one isn‘t. It’s a product that you use. We should stop telling people otherwise. A house is not your retirement.

- Austria, Germany and Switzerland are the countries with the world‘s lowest home-ownership rate. Putting them in that order, you also get their GDPs (Switzerland being the richest) as well as the lowest ownership-rate. That clarifies some myths: a) that low rate has anything to do with WW2 (it doesn’t) b) that high ownership rates benefit the people (it doesn’t, Third world countries have ownership rates topping 90%)

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#218

Post by ThePhysicist »

jplayer01 wrote: post #211
ThePhysicist wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Without wanting to offend I think it's quite funny that you think so, because before Prenzlauer Berg became what it is today it was one of the most prominent "art districts" in Berlin, and many artists had their workshops there ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenzlauer_Berg ). Now as you say it's mostly an area where hip and affluent families live in the many luxuriously renovated old buildings (Altbau). Seems ge…

> the city could profit from it. This point of view is precisely the problem and why companies like Google aren't welcome in places like where they tried to open this campus. Money isn't everything.

Absolutely, interesting jobs and opportunities are just as important. Still I don’t think that the presence of a large tech company would per se be detrimental to the quality of life in the city.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#219

Post by jtolmar »

marcell wrote: post #188
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> help diversify the tech ecosystem in Berlin and give them access to facilities and other resources. Another way of looking at that, is "gentrify the vibrant neighbourhood by trucking in techbros to displace the artists". It's not new (1) I don't necessarily agree with that framing, but it is understandable and coherent, not a misunderstanding 1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18282143

Since when is a bunch of nerds “techbros”? I really hate this term. If I like programming and computers and databases, am I a techbro? Is this supposed to be a bad thing?

It started a few years ago when there were stories about how many new programmers don't have the traditional nerdy background and instead there are an increasing number of frat boy stereotypes getting in on the industry because it's lucrative (brogrammers). It slowly warped into a convenient catch-all for both misplaced anger at tech workers for causing gentrification* and frustration at a class of people who oblivious to social and economic problems, oblivious to how much power they have, and who think everything can be fixed with an app or the most intellectually lazy application of libertarianism.

* Gentrification is caused by landlords. If being a landlord was illegal it wouldn't happen (or at least the problems caused by it wouldn't).

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#220

Post by Xylakant »

cyphunk wrote: post #150
Xylakant wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The building was originally renovated by ID Media, one of the largest digital media/web development companies in Berlin at the end of the nineties. It’s been filled with IT companies ever since they went bankrupt and currently has an incubator as one of the renters. It’s never been full of artists for the last 20 years. So while I’m not surprised (and very much not sad) that the plans didn’t work out for a host of re…

The mere mention of google already turned up into most housing and office space sale adverts. The effect on housing costs is real but the amount debatable. Rents in the neighborhood have gone through the roof the past couple years and protestors are looking for symbolic wins to make the city more urgently address the problem.

> Rents in the neighborhood have gone through the roof the past couple years

Exactly my point. The rents are on the rise with our without google. I really don't think that the victory is anything but a symbolic win. It does nothing to push the city to solve that issue.

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