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The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

nytimes.com

31–40 of 51 posts

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#31
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't because most of them didn't know the details/the scale of what was happening and the extermination on the camps was only "discovered" after the camps were broken up by the opposing armies (depending on the camp) "Discovered" because there were some reports of it, by one or two people, but I'm not sure how seriously they were taken. I guess people concluded/knew some of this was happening, but the breakup…

That's the usual apology of the 60s through 80s, but it's simply not true. Cardinal von Galen openly preached from the pulpit about the destruction of "unworthy life" (the T4 program) in 1941. Concentration camp inmates often weren't strictly confined to some walled-off camp, but had to go to work brigade actions all over the countryside, where they had limited contact to the populace, who quite often slipped them a…

There was some knowledge, but it seems it wasn't so widespread. Also the Sonderkommandos were "rotated" (hint: they weren't relocated or fired) with some frequency

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6b1z61/did_t...

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#32
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand what you're saying, and agree to a certain extent. But given enough time, all of this will just be statistics. And given even more time, it will be history. I've been reading a lot of history recently, and so much of it is pure analysis, all the emotions and morality removed. Perhaps the concept of humanity is closely tied to chronocentrism. Now think about what we did to survive 100k years ago.. Just a…

> But given enough time, all of this will just be statistics. Certainly you are joking. You know you're paraphrasing Stalin right now?

I'm not joking, or supporting any moral positions. Just thinking of it from another perspective. I am aware of the Stalin quote. There are very few cases in history when we intervene at the right time. Sadly, this will be another one of them.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#33
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But given enough time, all of this will just be statistics. Certainly you are joking. You know you're paraphrasing Stalin right now?

Or maybe “how will history judge us?” is not a useful question to ask when making moral choices. It assumes our many times descendants will judge our actions at all, and that if they do they will still have values that say wiping out a civilian population in war is evil. We should stop helping SA to intentionally starve a people to death because we know it to be terrible now.

You're right. We seldom think of how the future will judge us. If we did, we'd take the whole climate change thing more seriously. I don't think the people who are responsible for making these decisions think morally. So it is baffling to the common person, wondering why we let these things happen.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#34
post #20
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Erdogan government in Turkey? Negatory That would be super awkward, as Turkey is the only place European countries can get F35 engines overhauled. It boggles the mind how that was allowed to happen. In general there should have been two locations for redundancy but in the specific case of Turkey, it's now looking to Russia for its defence needs anyway.

Really? Source?

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/10/19/f35_fighter_engines...

It's pretty common knowledge that the work was spread around for political reasons. Similarly everyone's avionics must be overhauled in the UK.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#35
post #3

I always wondered why Germans in the 2nd world war didn't do anything to stop Hitler from committing genocide against the jews and others. But now I understand. Perhaps the biggest genocide of this century is happening now in Yemen. Not only we aren't trying to stop it, but we are sponsoring it and profiting from it. History will not be kind to us.

They didn't because most of them didn't know the details/the scale of what was happening and the extermination on the camps was only "discovered" after the camps were broken up by the opposing armies (depending on the camp) "Discovered" because there were some reports of it, by one or two people, but I'm not sure how seriously they were taken. I guess people concluded/knew some of this was happening, but the breakup…

This is wrong. Yes, the Nazis built systems specifically designed to break up social cohesion with Jews, e.g. first deporting them from smaller cities to Ghettos, then deporting from Ghettos to KZs (concentration camps). And also yes, relatively few actually knew about the scale of operation themselves, but a large part of the population knew that many of those deported were killed and not just deported to work camps or whatever. It was not a well-kept secret. Also, NS propaganda was full of the "[Endlösung der] Judenfrage", eradication of Jews etc., though it did very intentionally leave execution open. I think it is fairly obvious that most didn't want to know anything about it, choosing to ignore what is happening.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#36
post #2

In 30 years from now, the US, Canada and UK selling billions of dollars of military equipment, support and training to the saudi regime will be seen as morally equivalent to when the US dropped thousands of tonnes of munitions on Cambodia. Or the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, My Lai massacre, etc. Worthy of war crimes prosecution in The Hague. How hard is it, really, to take a principled stand and say that the most…

Pakistan and Turkey are democratic countries. Just saying. But I get what you meant. Anyway, I don't have a simple solution to this complex problem. Should US sell weapons to India? China?

Not in the current climate, no, and most certainly not for Pakistan where military runs the state!

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK government involvement and complicity is also much larger than the average Commonwealth citizen might think it is. https://www.google.ca/search?q=uk+arms+sales+to+saudi+arabia...

The UK notably is the one country that doesn't adhere to the EU's resolution to suspend arms sales to KSA following the Kashoggi killing.

If there is EU resolution to suspend arms sales why is Macron still refusing to abide and continuing to sell weapons to the Saudi regime: https://www.france24.com/en/20181026-macron-france-halt-saud...

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't because most of them didn't know the details/the scale of what was happening and the extermination on the camps was only "discovered" after the camps were broken up by the opposing armies (depending on the camp) "Discovered" because there were some reports of it, by one or two people, but I'm not sure how seriously they were taken. I guess people concluded/knew some of this was happening, but the breakup…

It varied. Many people knew. But even a few years after the war ended, some people even in neighbouring countries (I am from a neighbouring country) had a hard time believing it could have happened at that scale. I think that changed as TV documentaries become a thing. Either way, there was and still is great room to look the other way. But regarding the situation in Germany and occupied areas during the war, you hav…

There was an exception that proved* the rule.

In 1943 there was a hitch and the Nazis stepped back from mass murdering German women that dared to protest in their capital city.

The problem was that these good German women had Jewish husbands and weren't that keen on having their loved ones sent off for processing into lampshades:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenstrasse_protest

* The actual facts of this protest are not clear and there is lots to be learned about not just what happened but the stories told about this event.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#40
Saudi Arabia's artificial famine in Yemen has been subject to a worldwide media blockade for well over a year.[1][2] This has taken the shape of systematic under-reporting, preposterously low accounts of the death toll - usually treating the hundred of millions of children dead from famine as collateral damage, or avoiding the subject entirely - whitewashing of the motivations of the conflict and obscuring of its trajectory.

As Gary Brecher pointed out earlier this year, it's not that these stories don't sell. Mainstream news media was rife with accounts of starvation in war-torn Syria in years past:

> But the hundreds of thousands of verified, real famine and epidemic cases in Yemen get very little coverage. There’s nothing subtle about why not. The Syrian Sunni jihadis were de facto allies of the US/UK/Saudi/Israel/UAE bloc. So their suffering needed to be amplified. The Shia Yemenis can be slandered with one word: “Iran.” Anything touched by Iran, for Anglo media, is inherently evil, and anything done to those so tainted needs no further justification. The “Houthi,” i.e. the Shia of NW Yemen, are allegedly puppets or proxies for Iran, the Shia Mister Big of journalistic imagination, and therefore legitimate targets for even the nastiest war of extermination (such as by hunger and disease).

Now, at this late date, we have the New York Times's first real reckoning with Saudi Arabia's crimes. Not only that: there's meta-reporting on the story's traffic on Facebook[3], a self-lauding post about the NYT's audacity in shedding light on the tragedy[4], and an op-ed from Bernie Sanders[5]. All in the course of a few days!

What changed?

Consider this rare moment of introspection from the New York Times: "The tragedy in Yemen did not grow out of a natural disaster. It is a slow-motion crisis brought on by leaders of other countries who are willing to tolerate extraordinary suffering by civilians to advance political agendas. And yet somehow the vast catastrophe has failed to catch the world’s attention as much as the murder of a single man, the Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi, in the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul."

From a Saudi standpoint, there was nothing out of the ordinary about Khashoggi's murder. The Saudi Arabian legal system is not codified and has no system of judicial precedent; royal decree trumps the system as a whole (so long as it putatively follows Sharia Law); capital and corporal punishment are both common - beheading and flogging in particular. Freedom of speech and press are anathema.

From a worldwide media standpoint, Khashoggi's kidnapping murder was exceptional. He was one of their own. With his murder, the Saudis broke the devil's bargain they had maintained with worldwide media for years - the one that had (bafflingly) cast MBS as a great reformer and Saudi Arabia as an emerging Silicon Valley of the middle east. The question now is whether this contract can be rehabilitated - and if so, how.

The social dynamics of the reporting on this tragedy should serve as a warning to all of us. Stories like the OP don't get published in a vacuum.

[1] https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2018/06/war-nerd-anglo-ameri...

[2] https://www.moonofalabama.org/2017/11/yemen-having-lost-the-...

[3] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/26/business/facebook-blocks-...

[4] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/26/reader-center/yemen-photo...

[5] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/24/opinion/bernie-sanders-sa...

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