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The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

nytimes.com

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Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#11

Post by hjek »

tim333 wrote: post #4
walrus01 wrote: post #2

In 30 years from now, the US, Canada and UK selling billions of dollars of military equipment, support and training to the saudi regime will be seen as morally equivalent to when the US dropped thousands of tonnes of munitions on Cambodia. Or the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, My Lai massacre, etc. Worthy of war crimes prosecution in The Hague. How hard is it, really, to take a principled stand and say that the most…

Trouble is if we don't sell them weapons then they buy them off Russia and China and we have even less influence.

Yes, the good old "If I don't do it, someone else will".

I could go and rob the local supermarket with that excuse.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#12

Post by walrus01 »

rapsey wrote: post #9
_ncuy wrote: post #3

I always wondered why Germans in the 2nd world war didn't do anything to stop Hitler from committing genocide against the jews and others. But now I understand. Perhaps the biggest genocide of this century is happening now in Yemen. Not only we aren't trying to stop it, but we are sponsoring it and profiting from it. History will not be kind to us.

US involvement is much larger then simply selling weapons. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/05/03/us/p...

UK government involvement and complicity is also much larger than the average Commonwealth citizen might think it is.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=uk+arms+sales+to+saudi+arabia...

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#14

Post by blattimwind »

walrus01 wrote: post #12
rapsey wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US involvement is much larger then simply selling weapons. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/05/03/us/p...

UK government involvement and complicity is also much larger than the average Commonwealth citizen might think it is. https://www.google.ca/search?q=uk+arms+sales+to+saudi+arabia...

The UK notably is the one country that doesn't adhere to the EU's resolution to suspend arms sales to KSA following the Kashoggi killing.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#15

Post by howlingfantods »

tim333 wrote: post #4
walrus01 wrote: post #2

In 30 years from now, the US, Canada and UK selling billions of dollars of military equipment, support and training to the saudi regime will be seen as morally equivalent to when the US dropped thousands of tonnes of munitions on Cambodia. Or the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, My Lai massacre, etc. Worthy of war crimes prosecution in The Hague. How hard is it, really, to take a principled stand and say that the most…

Trouble is if we don't sell them weapons then they buy them off Russia and China and we have even less influence.

1) We're not doing much with all this supposed influence we're getting from the sales of weapons.

2) If they can easily switch to Russian or Chinese weapons, that implies we're not getting that much influence by selling them weapons.

3) If the US is not willing to exercise its influence (point 1) or is not really getting that much actual influence (point 2), it seems like we're just profiteering off a proxy war.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#16

Post by gaius »

walrus01 wrote: post #2

In 30 years from now, the US, Canada and UK selling billions of dollars of military equipment, support and training to the saudi regime will be seen as morally equivalent to when the US dropped thousands of tonnes of munitions on Cambodia. Or the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, My Lai massacre, etc. Worthy of war crimes prosecution in The Hague. How hard is it, really, to take a principled stand and say that the most…

The Erdogan government in Turkey? Negatory

That would be super awkward, as Turkey is the only place European countries can get F35 engines overhauled. It boggles the mind how that was allowed to happen. In general there should have been two locations for redundancy but in the specific case of Turkey, it's now looking to Russia for its defence needs anyway.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#17

Post by freddie_mercury »

raverbashing wrote: post #8
_ncuy wrote: post #3

I always wondered why Germans in the 2nd world war didn't do anything to stop Hitler from committing genocide against the jews and others. But now I understand. Perhaps the biggest genocide of this century is happening now in Yemen. Not only we aren't trying to stop it, but we are sponsoring it and profiting from it. History will not be kind to us.

They didn't because most of them didn't know the details/the scale of what was happening and the extermination on the camps was only "discovered" after the camps were broken up by the opposing armies (depending on the camp) "Discovered" because there were some reports of it, by one or two people, but I'm not sure how seriously they were taken. I guess people concluded/knew some of this was happening, but the breakup…

None of these claims are true. Germans knew.

> The mass of ordinary Germans did know about the evolving terror of Hitler's Holocaust, according to a new research study. They knew concentration camps were full of Jewish people who were stigmatised as sub-human and race-defilers. They knew that these, like other groups and minorities, were being killed out of hand. They knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters according to the study, which is due to be published simultaneously in Britain and the US early next month and which was described as ground-breaking by Oxford University Press yesterday and already hailed by other historians.

> The reports, in newspapers and magazines all over the country were phases in a public process of "desensitisation" which worked all too well, culminating in the killing of 6m Jews, says Robert Gellately. His book, Backing Hitler, is based on the first systematic analysis by a historian of surviving German newspaper and magazine archives since 1933, the year Hitler became chancellor.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#18

Post by nerflad »

throwaway8879 wrote: post #10
walrus01 wrote: post #2

In 30 years from now, the US, Canada and UK selling billions of dollars of military equipment, support and training to the saudi regime will be seen as morally equivalent to when the US dropped thousands of tonnes of munitions on Cambodia. Or the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, My Lai massacre, etc. Worthy of war crimes prosecution in The Hague. How hard is it, really, to take a principled stand and say that the most…

I understand what you're saying, and agree to a certain extent. But given enough time, all of this will just be statistics. And given even more time, it will be history. I've been reading a lot of history recently, and so much of it is pure analysis, all the emotions and morality removed. Perhaps the concept of humanity is closely tied to chronocentrism. Now think about what we did to survive 100k years ago.. Just a…

> But given enough time, all of this will just be statistics.

Certainly you are joking. You know you're paraphrasing Stalin right now?

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#19

Post by howlingfantods »

throwaway8879 wrote: post #10
walrus01 wrote: post #2

In 30 years from now, the US, Canada and UK selling billions of dollars of military equipment, support and training to the saudi regime will be seen as morally equivalent to when the US dropped thousands of tonnes of munitions on Cambodia. Or the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, My Lai massacre, etc. Worthy of war crimes prosecution in The Hague. How hard is it, really, to take a principled stand and say that the most…

I understand what you're saying, and agree to a certain extent. But given enough time, all of this will just be statistics. And given even more time, it will be history. I've been reading a lot of history recently, and so much of it is pure analysis, all the emotions and morality removed. Perhaps the concept of humanity is closely tied to chronocentrism. Now think about what we did to survive 100k years ago.. Just a…

Given enough time, everyone dies and everything is meaningless. It's easy to be a nihilist until you watch your own child starve to death.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#20

Post by zdkl »

gaius wrote: post #16
walrus01 wrote: post #2

In 30 years from now, the US, Canada and UK selling billions of dollars of military equipment, support and training to the saudi regime will be seen as morally equivalent to when the US dropped thousands of tonnes of munitions on Cambodia. Or the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, My Lai massacre, etc. Worthy of war crimes prosecution in The Hague. How hard is it, really, to take a principled stand and say that the most…

The Erdogan government in Turkey? Negatory That would be super awkward, as Turkey is the only place European countries can get F35 engines overhauled. It boggles the mind how that was allowed to happen. In general there should have been two locations for redundancy but in the specific case of Turkey, it's now looking to Russia for its defence needs anyway.

Really? Source?
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