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As a female engineer, I am not diversity

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Re: As a female engineer, I am not diversity

#131

Post by mantas »

malcolmgreaves wrote: post #130
mantas wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come to eastern europe and tell more about white privilege...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18305769

How is that related to eastern europe where 99% of population is white?

Of course our politicians are white. And we're not afraid to be murdered by cops because cop violence is next to non existent in there.

It'd be interesting to hear how there're "no closed doors" and "every opportunity is available" to nobody since whole population is white. Yeah, right, everybody is white and rich and healthy and has plenty of opportunities :) Especially the older generation that grew up in soviet times and lived through 90s :)

Relations with western europe, both on political and personal level, is a wide topic as well...

I'm pretty sure average black american is more privileged than average eastern european. So how about black privilege? Or is it just people in different countries and in different socioeconomic status face different issues, regardless of color...

Re: As a female engineer, I am not diversity

#132

Post by jriot »

malcolmgreaves wrote: post #129
jriot wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opinion.

Sticking your head in the sand because you don't want to see the truth doesn't make it go away.

Just because you live in the echo chamber known as SF, based on pushing identity and race into everything, doesn't make it true.

Re: As a female engineer, I am not diversity

#133

Post by malcolmgreaves »

lucozade wrote: post #126
malcolmgreaves wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly: the objective is to ensure that perspectives are not systematically ignored. However, please don't ignore history. Reality is not neat and tidy: there's never a blank slate from which to build anew. Everything real exists in context and has a past, which constrains its possible futures. Correlation is an important concept because it is evidence of association. And while it's true that associations can be n…

So, to paraphrase, you believe it's entirely reasonable to hire based on stereotypes. It's not clear from this whether it's just your stereotypes that are acceptable or can anyone join in? As an aside, I happen to find your gross characterisations objectionable. And yes, I find your writing insightful and informative. But not in a good way.

> So, to paraphrase, you believe it's entirely reasonable to hire based on stereotypes.

That's not at all what I wrote. I wrote that due to how society treats certian groups of people, there is a bag of correlated effects that members of said group have likely experienced. Therefore, it's also likely that those same individuals have had certian life experiences that members of other groups are likely to not have experienced. If you're for bringing different experiences to the table and you ignore this, then I'd seriously doubt your motivations.

Re: As a female engineer, I am not diversity

#134

Post by malcolmgreaves »

jriot wrote: post #132
malcolmgreaves wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sticking your head in the sand because you don't want to see the truth doesn't make it go away.

Just because you live in the echo chamber known as SF, based on pushing identity and race into everything, doesn't make it true.

Your privilege is evident in your response here.

As a white person, you have the luxury of not thinking about race. That's one of your privileges.

If you're a person of color, it's impossible to not think about race all of the time.

Also, it's evident that you're not being a genuine conversational partner here: you clearly didn't even read the first sentence of the post I linked earlier. You keep believing that white privilege = someone comes to your door to give you money.

Re: As a female engineer, I am not diversity

#135

Post by malcolmgreaves »

mantas wrote: post #131
malcolmgreaves wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18305769

How is that related to eastern europe where 99% of population is white? Of course our politicians are white. And we're not afraid to be murdered by cops because cop violence is next to non existent in there. It'd be interesting to hear how there're "no closed doors" and "every opportunity is available" to nobody since whole population is white. Yeah, right, everybody is white and rich and healthy and has plenty of op…

I'm not talking about Europe at all. This is an American-centeted conversation thread (on an American website). As an American, I am definitely not going into the culture, society, and politics of another continent.

Most European societies are extremely homogenous: racially and culturally. Naturally, those counties' social ails are vastly different from the heterogenous society that is the US.

Alsooooo you really didn't get my post at all. The first thing I wrote is that white privilege has a casual relationship with how society treats you. It only incidentally/implcitly affects finances. It's actually humorous that you believe white privilege = someone gives you money.

Re: As a female engineer, I am not diversity

#136

Post by malcolmgreaves »

Chris2048 wrote: post #123
malcolmgreaves wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18305769

How does that inform your reasoning above? How does being part of a group racially targeted by cops mean you can bring something different to a software development team, outside very specific examples of software?

You, uh, answered your own question in your second sentence. Do you expect me to enumerate all the possible ways? Why don't you think about your life experience has been shaped by your gender and race? Your writing implies that society doesn't treat people differently on their skin complexion and gender. Do you believe that?

Re: As a female engineer, I am not diversity

#137

Post by Chris2048 »

malcolmgreaves wrote: post #136
Chris2048 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that inform your reasoning above? How does being part of a group racially targeted by cops mean you can bring something different to a software development team, outside very specific examples of software?

You, uh, answered your own question in your second sentence. Do you expect me to enumerate all the possible ways? Why don't you think about your life experience has been shaped by your gender and race? Your writing implies that society doesn't treat people differently on their skin complexion and gender. Do you believe that?

> Do you believe that?

I don't believe that, I also don't believe that "my writing implies that" - dont put words in my mouth, it's aggravating to play that game.

> Do you expect me to enumerate all the possible ways?

I'm asking specifically what this brings to a software team; just a few good (general) examples will do. I can't see how I answered that; Are you saying the answer is only in "very specific examples of software"?

> don't you think about your life experience has been shaped by your gender and race

Yes, but nothing to do with my programming contributions

Re: As a female engineer, I am not diversity

#138

Post by jriot »

malcolmgreaves wrote: post #134
jriot wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you live in the echo chamber known as SF, based on pushing identity and race into everything, doesn't make it true.

Your privilege is evident in your response here. As a white person, you have the luxury of not thinking about race. That's one of your privileges. If you're a person of color, it's impossible to not think about race all of the time. Also, it's evident that you're not being a genuine conversational partner here: you clearly didn't even read the first sentence of the post I linked earlier. You keep believing that white…

Most people don't think about race, particularly those outside of the coastal cities, excluding the south. There are far more pressing issues than to think about race at every turn or any turn for that matter. If you believe people consume their time thinking about race you are naive.

Let's pretend for a second white privilege exists, why would I as white male, give-up something that actually benefits me in this world? Are you going to purposefully make life harder for yourself?

Re: As a female engineer, I am not diversity

#139

Post by mantas »

malcolmgreaves wrote: post #135
mantas wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that related to eastern europe where 99% of population is white? Of course our politicians are white. And we're not afraid to be murdered by cops because cop violence is next to non existent in there. It'd be interesting to hear how there're "no closed doors" and "every opportunity is available" to nobody since whole population is white. Yeah, right, everybody is white and rich and healthy and has plenty of op…

I'm not talking about Europe at all. This is an American-centeted conversation thread (on an American website). As an American, I am definitely not going into the culture, society, and politics of another continent. Most European societies are extremely homogenous: racially and culturally. Naturally, those counties' social ails are vastly different from the heterogenous society that is the US. Alsooooo you really did…

> I'm not talking about Europe at all.

It's awesome if you agree that "white privilege" is nonsense outside of US. But I bumped into way too many people who bring this bullshit to Europe as well. Hearing about that in Eastern europe is even funnier.

Why post your american-centric stuff as reply to euro post then?

> Most European societies are extremely homogenous

You might want to double-check that. And I'm not even talking about recent migration in Western Europe. For example, 25% of Estonia population is Russian. South Tyrol. Whole Switzerland is one big multi-lingual clusterfuck. Different parts of UK are not exactly identical either. Spain/Catalunya thing is kinda interesting too. Jewish communities are smaller (or entirely deleted) nowadays, but there's still a lot of memory in general population.

> It's actually humorous that you believe white privilege = someone gives you money.

I'm not talking about money either.

Re: As a female engineer, I am not diversity

#140

Post by naikrovek »

justaman wrote: post #47

I'm going to say it. The most excluded group in SV are conservative republicans. Its a death sentence to your career to come out as one. If you truly value diversity, their point of view is the most absent from tech.

Absent from tech in Silicon Valley maybe. Go work in IT at State Farm Insurance or some other tech area east of Silicon Valley and observe the absolute and complete lack of openly liberal or openly atheist tech people. It's the end of a job, often, to say that you are liberal or atheist in many places I've worked.

Conservative Christians are definitely not a minority in my experience; they are a very vocal majority.

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