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Are Narcissists More Likely to Experience Impostor Syndrome?

blogs.scientificamerican.com

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Re: Are Narcissists More Likely to Experience Impostor Syndrome?

#61
post #23
post #7

TIL I'm a narcissist. Not how I expected this morning to go. I think these kind of categories that come from psychology are useful and also dangerous. Our innate tendency towards heuristics makes it difficult to talk about this stuff, especially with words like "narcissist" that have strongly negative connotations. The brain is a complicated mess. Maybe the most complicated mess in the universe. We try to impose some…

The diagnosis is not arbitrary and the lack of self-awareness those suffering from NPD experience places them at a disadvantage at self-diagnosis. DSM standards have moved a lot over the years, but NPD has remained largely the same. Ask a child, love-interest or spouse of someone with NPD about the manifestations of the condition on their lives and you'll get a remarkably consistent story. There are two grey areas: F…

I think this is a helpful comment.

All people have some narcissistic tendencies, and in a sense I feel like my culture (I'm in Texas) amplifies and rewards those tendencies.

There is a difference between displaying a tendency and having your entire life torn apart because of a person's pathological need to defend an image of themself. I have a lot of sympathy for both Echo and Narcissus, because that's a hard story to live in.

Re: Are Narcissists More Likely to Experience Impostor Syndrome?

#62
post #18

Non-narcissist here, apparently. I do find the premise somewhat troubling. If you’re supremely confident and never doubt yourself, even in situations where you should, you could be described as a narcissist. And if you’re lacking in self-confidence, and constantly think you’ll be found out, you’re also a narcissist. And there’s probably narcissists who experience a moderate level of self-doubt in between. It’s more l…

This is why I find the idea of promoting "mental health awareness" to be disturbing. It's far too tempting to say you know why someone acts some way, or that the way they are acting is a disorder, based on one or two observations. I do the same thing though. I really wish I understood myself half as well as I think I understand other people.

Armchair diagnosis is dangerous IMO. It can be a form of gaslighting. Sure everyone can benefit from therapy, meditation and improving systems for managing sadness, frustration, impatience but telling yourself or someone else you have ADD, compulsive disorder, anxiety is a great way to pop the self esteem bubble and confidence you need to get through life.

In the workplace it's especial dangerous; you can force someone to question why they don't like a job or feel isolated or bullied by convincing them their perception is really the problem.

It doesn't take much effort to convince someone who is upset by circumstance that they have a problem. "You're too sensitive" "you're depressed" "that person has an anxiety problem" when really the environment at the job might really be the problem or some basic coaching might be the solution.

I worked somewhere in which people openly admitted the company culture drove them to therapy yet were so "grateful" for an "open and inclusive" environment. The cognitive dissonance there was very disturbing.

This occurs in families as well. I grew up in an abusive household and, well damn, your parents will do their best to convince you that you are the crazy one and need help.

Re: Are Narcissists More Likely to Experience Impostor Syndrome?

#63
post #11

This is my point of view: Everyone is a narcissist maximally. It's not a spectrum, just a maximum state that is always on, always self preserving, but personality differs quite a bit. Personality causes others to perceive others as being more or less narcissistic. In other words we started using the word narcissistic to start describing personality types.

I've read that narcissism is a spectrum. It's good to have healthy amounts of narcissism, it is only bad when you're on the wrong side of the spectrum.

For everyone in this thread freaking out about potentially being a narcissist, I highly recommend this book from a Harvard Medical School psychologist. Rethinking Narcissism: The Bad-and Surprising Good-About Feeling Special by Dr. Craig Malkin. Here's his test.

http://www.drcraigmalkin.com/the-narcissism-test

Re: Are Narcissists More Likely to Experience Impostor Syndrome?

#64
post #8
post #7

TIL I'm a narcissist. Not how I expected this morning to go. I think these kind of categories that come from psychology are useful and also dangerous. Our innate tendency towards heuristics makes it difficult to talk about this stuff, especially with words like "narcissist" that have strongly negative connotations. The brain is a complicated mess. Maybe the most complicated mess in the universe. We try to impose some…

Agreed. This striving towards binary classification is so flawed from any broader perspective. I, too, just learned that I'm a narcissist. I had to squint quite a bit at the diagnostic list there, and sort of wedge my own psychological dispositions creatively into the qualifications list there but then yeah -- snap (and crap!) -- I'm a narcissist. Oh, but if I use just a little more nuanced application of thought, th…

I don't see how you can reach this conclusion from what you describe.

The list explicitly part of a larger list of possible symptoms. The fact that you, I assume not a psychologist, were able to change your "diagnosis" by fudging the numbers a bit, doesn't really prove anything.

As I understand it, lists like these are tools. Not the formal definition of a mental illness. They are used to help guide mental health professionals in their diagnosis. They are meant to be used by people trained in the field.

Follow up I don't think mental health diagnoses are as black and white as you make it out to be. People can have moderate or severe forms of many illnesses.

Re: Are Narcissists More Likely to Experience Impostor Syndrome?

#65
post #7

TIL I'm a narcissist. Not how I expected this morning to go. I think these kind of categories that come from psychology are useful and also dangerous. Our innate tendency towards heuristics makes it difficult to talk about this stuff, especially with words like "narcissist" that have strongly negative connotations. The brain is a complicated mess. Maybe the most complicated mess in the universe. We try to impose some…

People are being a bit hard on themselves here. Narcissism is not something you truly understand until you meet someone who really is one at the far end of the spectrum. Until you spend weeks, months or even years trying to work out why they have had their empathy glands removed you just don't fully understand the 'narcissism' concept. We see narcissists like The Donald and think that is it, actually you need to be o…

Go Karts have relative weak engines and you have to accelerate a lot after curves. Low weight is a big Advantage. So at average women have an Advantage

Re: Are Narcissists More Likely to Experience Impostor Syndrome?

#66
post #45

Yikes. I’m thinking about how labels and identifications like these might harm us. As naive as it may sound, I think when you identify with something, you are constrained within that indentification, not aware you are really not that and therefore limited. I know we live in a society but yikes.

[deleted]

Re: Are Narcissists More Likely to Experience Impostor Syndrome?

#67
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By no means is this a universal truism, but in general if you think you have a Cluster B personality disorder, you probably don’t. If you think you’re the smartest, best person in the world and other people are inferior and should know it... then you might.

What if I think I'm approximately the 100th smartest person in the world? But only when it comes to, say, J2EE? Like I'm the 100th smartest person at J2EE in the world, and everyone else besides the approximately 100 above me are J2EE-inferior. Am I a Narcissist? A J2EE-Narcissist?

Narcissism is more of a spectrum of behavior than a bistable formalism, but it is mostly characterized by feeling superior in general (not only in J2EE) and that superiority not based on actually being better. Keep in mind that most deluded people do not recognize their delusion so the latter is less useful as a self-diagnostic criteria.

Here's an example, my city has a water-related emergency and so the water system is temporarily broken. Local coffee shops have closed because it's too difficult to access suitable water. Meanwhile I am drinking coffee right now, and feeling quite smug that as a rank amateur I can do what Those Who Had One Job cannot. I frequently have this experience where I feel like I can do things better than other people. This is a giant red flag for narcissism.

If you dig into it though, I can make coffee because I have a weeks worth of supplies on hand because I had a rough childhood and certain things stay with you. I have two ISPs in case one goes down (and actually chose where I live for that reason), I have at least four modes of transit to get most places, I just chronically overplan for everything in life all the time. So when something goes wrong I will have two or three solutions ready to go while a normal person is trying to stop panicking.

That is a symptom of something, namely my generalized anxiety of having to rely on other people. But whereas a narcissist will berate a new cashier for not knowing how the POS system works, I surreptitiously memorized the right buttons from the last time I was here, help them get through the transaction as quickly as possible and say that I used to work here so they don't feel too bad.

Re: Are Narcissists More Likely to Experience Impostor Syndrome?

#68
post #7

TIL I'm a narcissist. Not how I expected this morning to go. I think these kind of categories that come from psychology are useful and also dangerous. Our innate tendency towards heuristics makes it difficult to talk about this stuff, especially with words like "narcissist" that have strongly negative connotations. The brain is a complicated mess. Maybe the most complicated mess in the universe. We try to impose some…

People are being a bit hard on themselves here. Narcissism is not something you truly understand until you meet someone who really is one at the far end of the spectrum. Until you spend weeks, months or even years trying to work out why they have had their empathy glands removed you just don't fully understand the 'narcissism' concept. We see narcissists like The Donald and think that is it, actually you need to be o…

I think the notion of "vulnerable narcissism" presented by the article is a very interesting one. It's not the same as the classic narcissism that you might have been on the 'sharp end' of.

The "vulnerable narcissist" (as presented) is incredibly concerned with what other people think (at least on a shallow level), but often views themselves very negatively. They have a negative bias to self image and a lack of assertiveness but are nonetheless very focused on how they are perceived and themselves in general.

The "vulnerable" variety resonates with me quite a bit more. I could never agree with a statement like "I am a superior person", but I can agree with a statement like "I often feel as if I need compliments from others in order to be sure of myself." At various times in my life I have been very engaged in fishing for likes, compliments, whatever kind of approval I can get.

That has changed a lot for me recently, because I finally transitioned (I'm a transgender woman). Accepting that freed me from a lot of inauthenticity. I don't need the Internet to constantly validate my femininity any more, I don't feel terribly ashamed for wanting femininity in my life, etc. I still do think about gender, but rather to my surprise I spend way less time asking myself if I'm performing femininity correctly than I did performing masculinity - getting closer to that authentic place the article talks about.

I have been on the "sharp end" of the class sort courtesy of my mom. Like Trump, she lives in a bubble where reality itself distorts. One of the most obvious examples is whenever my gender comes up she always claims others in the family feel exactly the same way as she does, even when this is laughably and obviously incorrect. In fact she extends this to the rest of the world, claiming that e.g., I'm the laughing stock of all of my friends and they only act nice around me to be politically correct(even though, obviously, I'm in contact with them more than she is).

I could list countless other examples; for instance she claimed that the reason my brother and his wife decided not to have a child was because she wanted to fly to Paris and buy a purse. She simply warps reality to a space that is consistent with how she feels, even when that is absurd.

You shouldn't dismiss the resulting behavioral patterns that I have, though - for instance, constantly fishing for validation that refutes what she says. It tends to me being inauthentic and approval seeking. It also means that I do not put myself in vulnerable positions whenever possible. This means things like not interviewing for jobs and missing other opportunities because the risk of failure might validate all that negative talk. It means doing mediocre work intentionally so I can brush it off as "I didn't really try".

And most of all, like classic narcissism, it means failing to form deeper relationships or care about others on a level beyond figuring out what it takes to get them to like my selfie. At its most extreme, you get that intense reality distortion, but in a negative way - e.g., I actually believe her when she says things like all my friends are laughing at me as a man in a dress.

It's not accepting that how others view me isn't necessarily how I view myself, and instead believing in a world where everyone thinks the same things I do - or at least, they would, if they saw the "real me", which I have to hide. Hence, the link to impostor syndrome.

Re: Are Narcissists More Likely to Experience Impostor Syndrome?

#69
post #18

Non-narcissist here, apparently. I do find the premise somewhat troubling. If you’re supremely confident and never doubt yourself, even in situations where you should, you could be described as a narcissist. And if you’re lacking in self-confidence, and constantly think you’ll be found out, you’re also a narcissist. And there’s probably narcissists who experience a moderate level of self-doubt in between. It’s more l…

This is why I find the idea of promoting "mental health awareness" to be disturbing. It's far too tempting to say you know why someone acts some way, or that the way they are acting is a disorder, based on one or two observations. I do the same thing though. I really wish I understood myself half as well as I think I understand other people.

Disorders are classified by more than just one or two observations. The problem is people thinking that normal reactions to life is are the result of a disorder.

Case in point, there's a range of responses to trauma. Having bad memories or occasional nightmares as a response to trauma is normal. PTSD is not normal. Less than half of people involved in severe traumas will have problems coping normally and fewer develop diagnosable PTSD.

Re: Are Narcissists More Likely to Experience Impostor Syndrome?

#70
post #60
post #18

Non-narcissist here, apparently. I do find the premise somewhat troubling. If you’re supremely confident and never doubt yourself, even in situations where you should, you could be described as a narcissist. And if you’re lacking in self-confidence, and constantly think you’ll be found out, you’re also a narcissist. And there’s probably narcissists who experience a moderate level of self-doubt in between. It’s more l…

It makes sense if you understand that mental health “diagnosis” has a primary function as a tool for control and status (either boosting the status of the prescriber or reducing the status of the patient). Primate dominance games.

Mental health diagnoses are as valid and useful as physical health diagnoses.
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