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Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

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Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#31

Post by fjsolwmv »

flohofwoe wrote: post #8
simonh wrote: post #3

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of any Berlin residents. Vocal NIMBY minority driving away new jobs and beneficial development? Genuine victory in preserving local culture and character? Bit of both? Other?

It's a good thing IMHO, Berlin is already overrun by IT tech and really needs a bit more diversity in that regard. The city is getting too expensive too fast, rent is exploding, and 'normal people' are driven out and entire areas are becoming 'elite ghettos'. There's plenty of smaller cities within a few hundred kilometers that would actually benefit from a Google Campus, and where Google might be better welcome.

It is replacing entire industries worldwide. It's making many urban industries obsolete.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#32

Post by ben_w »

simonh wrote: post #5
woodpanel wrote: post #2

Rightly so. Berlin has an amazing start up scene, certainly unique for and unrivaled in Germany. That being said, Berlin hosts a lot of NIMBYism. Particularly by people who gentrified the city in the first place and immediately turned to become fierce gentrification enemies. Essentially locking in their gains.

Though presumably not financial gains? Gentrification usually implies skyrocketing property valuations, so early movers should stand to win big from the trend. I used to know someone that bought a flat in Soho, central London, in the mid-90s. She sold it when she married 8 years later and made over half a million quid. No idea what it would be worth now.

Berlin has a very different attitude to all of this than the UK. Rent control; graffiti isn’t property damage; very low rates of property ownership; city centre anarchist camps (at least, I think that’s what I saw); blurred Google Street View images all over the place… I have recently moved here from the UK and it feels like much I have barely scratched the surface of the differences.

I doubt the concept of gentrification translates as well as a dictionary might suggest.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#33

Post by raverbashing »

hummel wrote: post #13
doombolt wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of all places in Spain Madrid is probably the "meh"est. Not wanting to be snark but the selection process seems strange indeed.

It's the door to South America and more than 572 million potential customers.

Wrong guess

They develop for LATAM in other offices

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#34

Post by hocuspocus »

fjsolwmv wrote: post #28
hocuspocus wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call it NIMBYism. - Most residents in Berlin (and in Germany for that matter) rent their apartments. - There's a fairly good supply of newly built homes. It's still not enough to absorb the population growth, but it's much better than in many German cities. People complain because they can see the downside of this influx of tech workers very clearly, while the benefits aren't obvious, at least not yet. Ren…

Why can't local government use these techies' income tax money to pay for schools and development? This smells like classic blameshifting.

Like with most societal problems in Germany, money is probably not an issue.

It will just keep getting harder to hire staff. Candidates know that their purchasing power and quality of life are threatened by the gentrification quicker than the government is willing to raise wages and invest in the infrastructure.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#35

Post by ben_w »

fjsolwmv wrote: post #28
hocuspocus wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call it NIMBYism. - Most residents in Berlin (and in Germany for that matter) rent their apartments. - There's a fairly good supply of newly built homes. It's still not enough to absorb the population growth, but it's much better than in many German cities. People complain because they can see the downside of this influx of tech workers very clearly, while the benefits aren't obvious, at least not yet. Ren…

Why can't local government use these techies' income tax money to pay for schools and development? This smells like classic blameshifting.

First thought is the time it takes to train new teachers and build new schools.

However: I literally cannot confirm or refute the possibility of blame shifting, as my German comprehension is at the level of headlines and 50% of content, I can’t do in-depth news coverage yet.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#36

Post by CapacitorSet »

hummel wrote: post #12
meguest wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain and Italy currently have weakened economies caused by large unemployment and government debt. Italy in particular is at risk of defaulting on its debts (which are 131% of GDP compared to 87.7% for the U.K and 64.1% in Germany as of 2017) and the ECB and other lenders are going to be reluctant to lend to them. This is turn puts the banks and all kinds of public services at risk.

Wrong. Weak economics, low employment, and large government debt (US anyone?) are not relevant when you bring talents, Quality of life is, and Spain or Italy are high above the mentioned countries. Also is much more cost-effective and secure. Ask yourself why many Europeans choose to retire to Spain. But I do agree, we export talent to anywhere, where Spanish professionals, executives or researchers lead the way on m…

>low employment [is] not relevant when you bring talents

While I agree with the rest, I wouldn't be too sure about this. I suppose a tech talent doesn't plan on working at the same place their whole lives, so they would take into consideration the availability of tech jobs in the area.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#37

Post by flohofwoe »

fjsolwmv wrote: post #31
flohofwoe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good thing IMHO, Berlin is already overrun by IT tech and really needs a bit more diversity in that regard. The city is getting too expensive too fast, rent is exploding, and 'normal people' are driven out and entire areas are becoming 'elite ghettos'. There's plenty of smaller cities within a few hundred kilometers that would actually benefit from a Google Campus, and where Google might be better welcome.

It is replacing entire industries worldwide. It's making many urban industries obsolete.

Sure but Berlin is already close to an IT monoculture. More of the same just makes things worse when the IT industry will be made obsolete by something else.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#38

Post by woodpanel »

simonh wrote: post #5
woodpanel wrote: post #2

Rightly so. Berlin has an amazing start up scene, certainly unique for and unrivaled in Germany. That being said, Berlin hosts a lot of NIMBYism. Particularly by people who gentrified the city in the first place and immediately turned to become fierce gentrification enemies. Essentially locking in their gains.

Though presumably not financial gains? Gentrification usually implies skyrocketing property valuations, so early movers should stand to win big from the trend. I used to know someone that bought a flat in Soho, central London, in the mid-90s. She sold it when she married 8 years later and made over half a million quid. No idea what it would be worth now.

It's gentrificators that become anti-gentrification activists once they secured their gain.

The "gain" in this case is:

1) Getting to transform a neighbourhood (that you weren't a part of before) however it fancies you, while simultaneously prohibiting those that come after you from doing the same.

2) locking in the low rents you have to pay. While keeping supply of housing artificially low you're thus increasing the rent-gap between what you have to pay and those that move in after you.

As the other commenters noted, Germany has a low home-ownership rate (good thing IMO but a whole different story). Because of strict laws on how to increase rents, gentrificators can secure themselves the low rents from before gentrification. It is not uncommon that one neighbour tenant in the same house pays two times your rent.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#39

Post by camillomiller »

woodpanel wrote: post #2

Rightly so. Berlin has an amazing start up scene, certainly unique for and unrivaled in Germany. That being said, Berlin hosts a lot of NIMBYism. Particularly by people who gentrified the city in the first place and immediately turned to become fierce gentrification enemies. Essentially locking in their gains.

This makes no sense. Berlin is a rent city, not a ownership one. So what’s the incredible gain to lock?

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#40

Post by thefounder »

fjsolwmv wrote: post #28
hocuspocus wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call it NIMBYism. - Most residents in Berlin (and in Germany for that matter) rent their apartments. - There's a fairly good supply of newly built homes. It's still not enough to absorb the population growth, but it's much better than in many German cities. People complain because they can see the downside of this influx of tech workers very clearly, while the benefits aren't obvious, at least not yet. Ren…

Why can't local government use these techies' income tax money to pay for schools and development? This smells like classic blameshifting.

And what about rental prices? Subsidize them as well? I highly doubt that would happen
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