Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 235 posts

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#21

Post by thomasz »

simonh wrote: post #5
woodpanel wrote: post #2

Rightly so. Berlin has an amazing start up scene, certainly unique for and unrivaled in Germany. That being said, Berlin hosts a lot of NIMBYism. Particularly by people who gentrified the city in the first place and immediately turned to become fierce gentrification enemies. Essentially locking in their gains.

Though presumably not financial gains? Gentrification usually implies skyrocketing property valuations, so early movers should stand to win big from the trend. I used to know someone that bought a flat in Soho, central London, in the mid-90s. She sold it when she married 8 years later and made over half a million quid. No idea what it would be worth now.

Germany in general, and Berlin in particular has a very low percentage of home owners. Therefore, financial profit from gentrification goes to a small elite, maybe the upper 15%.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#22

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

jschuur wrote: post #9

If I read the article correctly, this wasn't about building a new 'Google campus' (i.e. a huge building to house a large number of Google employees as their main regional HQ). This was about building Campus Berlin, an incubator for startups like they pioneered first in London and then brought to other cities. See https://www.campus.co/berlin/de and https://www.campus.co/london/en . It's easy to misunderstand this bec…

> help diversify the tech ecosystem in Berlin and give them access to facilities and other resources.

Another way of looking at that, is "gentrify the vibrant neighbourhood by trucking in techbros to displace the artists". It's not new (1)

I don't necessarily agree with that framing, but it is understandable and coherent, not a misunderstanding

1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18282143

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#23

Post by pjc50 »

doombolt wrote: post #17
travelbuffoon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2nd class citizen Huh? Also, those places are way more international than most places in Europe, which makes relocation more attractive. Good luck attracting non-Italians to Italy, or non-Polish to Poland.

Is not it obvious? When you tell you do software in Perugia you sound important, when you tell the same in London you basically say you're a nobody. I would gladly move to Italy with its amazing culture. I would not move to a place so diverse and full of recent immigrants that it no longer has any specific culture. Am I unique here? And yes, people relocate to Poland a lot, from ex-USSR countries for example.

You don't want to immigrate to London because there are too many immigrants?

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#24

Post by bartman »

jschuur wrote: post #9

If I read the article correctly, this wasn't about building a new 'Google campus' (i.e. a huge building to house a large number of Google employees as their main regional HQ). This was about building Campus Berlin, an incubator for startups like they pioneered first in London and then brought to other cities. See https://www.campus.co/berlin/de and https://www.campus.co/london/en . It's easy to misunderstand this bec…

This could have been a big factor.

I live in Berlin and have not followed this topic closely, and only heard about this not being a typical Google office days ago when Google changed plans. The talk on the street over the last months was always centered on Google wanting to create a big office and the residents not wanting any big corporations there.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#25

Post by hocuspocus »

simonh wrote: post #3

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of any Berlin residents. Vocal NIMBY minority driving away new jobs and beneficial development? Genuine victory in preserving local culture and character? Bit of both? Other?

I wouldn't call it NIMBYism.

- Most residents in Berlin (and in Germany for that matter) rent their apartments.

- There's a fairly good supply of newly built homes. It's still not enough to absorb the population growth, but it's much better than in many German cities.

People complain because they can see the downside of this influx of tech workers very clearly, while the benefits aren't obvious, at least not yet. Rents have doubled in some areas. Government offices are understaffed. So are kindergartens, schools, ...

While the government is partly to blame, a lot of startups haven taken advantage of Berlin's situation in questionable ways. The time where you could hire cheap developers is definitely over, but it's still very common to underpay and abuse people in non-engineering positions, who very often are interns and freelancers.

Kreuzberg is maybe too emblematic and Google is a scapegoat here, but I can understand the resentment against tech incubators.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#26

Post by travelbuffoon »

doombolt wrote: post #17
travelbuffoon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2nd class citizen Huh? Also, those places are way more international than most places in Europe, which makes relocation more attractive. Good luck attracting non-Italians to Italy, or non-Polish to Poland.

Is not it obvious? When you tell you do software in Perugia you sound important, when you tell the same in London you basically say you're a nobody. I would gladly move to Italy with its amazing culture. I would not move to a place so diverse and full of recent immigrants that it no longer has any specific culture. Am I unique here? And yes, people relocate to Poland a lot, from ex-USSR countries for example.

Needing that kind of recognition seems unhealthy.

I'm pretty sure both London and Switzerland have cultures (OK, UK culture is mostly just drinking but still...).

Large software hubs generally need to pull in people from around the world, not just USSR. And that's the crux of the problem. London, Berlin, Paris, Zurich are all major international cities - it's easier for people from all around the world to settle down there than in places like Warsaw or Perugia.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#27

Post by dao- »

jschuur wrote: post #9

If I read the article correctly, this wasn't about building a new 'Google campus' (i.e. a huge building to house a large number of Google employees as their main regional HQ). This was about building Campus Berlin, an incubator for startups like they pioneered first in London and then brought to other cities. See https://www.campus.co/berlin/de and https://www.campus.co/london/en . It's easy to misunderstand this bec…

> There may still be very valid reasons to protest Google in Berlin, but I wonder if the people objecting understood the distinction:

Very much so. Been to a panel discussion organized by them.

The fear was that the incubator would accelerate gentrification. Doesn't matter whether the pay checks come from Google at the end of the day.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#28

Post by fjsolwmv »

hocuspocus wrote: post #25
simonh wrote: post #3

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of any Berlin residents. Vocal NIMBY minority driving away new jobs and beneficial development? Genuine victory in preserving local culture and character? Bit of both? Other?

I wouldn't call it NIMBYism. - Most residents in Berlin (and in Germany for that matter) rent their apartments. - There's a fairly good supply of newly built homes. It's still not enough to absorb the population growth, but it's much better than in many German cities. People complain because they can see the downside of this influx of tech workers very clearly, while the benefits aren't obvious, at least not yet. Ren…

Why can't local government use these techies' income tax money to pay for schools and development? This smells like classic blameshifting.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#29

Post by alkonaut »

travelbuffoon wrote: post #15
doombolt wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why it will be harder to attract software developers to Italy versus Poland. Weather and environment are much nicer and if this job ends you just move elsewhere. I would easily move to a cheap locale even if tech scene there is not abundant. I'd not move to London or Switzerland since you will always be 2nd class citizen compared to e.g. bankers. Which is just non issue in southern europe. Weak eco…

> 2nd class citizen Huh? Also, those places are way more international than most places in Europe, which makes relocation more attractive. Good luck attracting non-Italians to Italy, or non-Polish to Poland.

I (as a neither Polish or Italian person) wouldn't mind moving to either, but given the current political climate in Poland I'd rather move to Italy tbh.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#30

Post by fjsolwmv »

doombolt wrote: post #7
meguest wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain and Italy currently have weakened economies caused by large unemployment and government debt. Italy in particular is at risk of defaulting on its debts (which are 131% of GDP compared to 87.7% for the U.K and 64.1% in Germany as of 2017) and the ECB and other lenders are going to be reluctant to lend to them. This is turn puts the banks and all kinds of public services at risk.

I don't understand why it will be harder to attract software developers to Italy versus Poland. Weather and environment are much nicer and if this job ends you just move elsewhere. I would easily move to a cheap locale even if tech scene there is not abundant. I'd not move to London or Switzerland since you will always be 2nd class citizen compared to e.g. bankers. Which is just non issue in southern europe. Weak eco…

Do people move to Poland, or do employers hire local underemployed (and Soviet era educated) talent?
Post reply on HN