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Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

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Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#221

Post by Arbitrary4657 »

snikeris wrote: post #111
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/19/income-inequality-continues-... https://inequality.stanford.edu/publications/20-facts-about-... https://www.businessinsider.com/inequality-is-deepening-us-e... Will that do, or do you need more elaboration?

Thanks, I'll check these out. Inequality seems like a fact of life, so I'm wondering what's so horrifying about it. Edit: I was really hopeful for this Stanford resource, but I'm not even sure these "are facts that everyone should know". > 10. Residential Segregation tldr: Rich people and poor people don't live in the same areas. > 13. Bad Jobs tldr: Some people have bad jobs, and if you don't work full-time somewher…

Inequality is indeed inevitable, but inequality to this degree is relatively recent. You must have a short memory.

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#222

Post by krupan »

sangnoir wrote: post #154
krupan wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, my medical supplies and devices fund in my IRA is way up

Not to get all Marxist - but using IRA's/401k's to get labor to go all-in on the stock-market was one hell of a judo move by the American capital class.

I had to reread your comment several times before I think I parsed it correctly. "Labor" is people, right? But not the same people as "The American Capital Class"?

Anyway, I'm pretty sure there are bond and cash options in most retirement accounts, if the stock market isn't your thing.

And my original comment wasn't really saying I'm happy about the rising costs of health care, just pointing out a small silver lining to it, or maybe just an idea of how to make it hurt less.

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#223

Post by gooseifer »

rhacker wrote: post #19
gooseifer wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Federal government taxes the steel mill and the tertiary industries that are able to thrive because that steel mill is generating revenue. You directly benefit from countless federal programs and indirectly benefit from even more.

It's sad that people still think we benefit from taxes. If people patched their own roads, paid for their own schools, paid for the police, we'd still be far far far richer. Instead we're paying 10-20k PER BOMB. Every time we drop 5 bombs that could have been a freaking decent salary for a local teacher. Instead that money is killing, like 50-100 people. The world has become what it is because of the way we treat oth…

Getting people to pay for all of those things is what taxes are for. If it was completely voluntary how many people would actually pitch in to pay for all of these services?

What about the communities that are unable to afford these services?

It’s very easy to imagine that in your scenario that the very wealthy segment themselves off to pay for private services while everyone else suffers.

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#224

Post by weberc2 »

maxxxxx wrote: post #212
weberc2 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry dude, that's how economies work. Investors agree to buy shares in exchange for the right to sell those shares later. Employees agree to work in exchange for a salary; if they can find a larger salary elsewhere, they're free to pursue it. If employees want to buy some part of a company, they can do that as well (assuming they can persuade someone with shares to sell them) and then they'll earn (or lose) RoI just…

"Sorry dude, that's how economies work." There is no natural law that says things have to be that way. The economy is man made and when you look a different countries you'll see that there is a lot variation. There is no natural reason that for example investment income should be taxed lower than employment income. You could come up with a law that requires a certain share of the company's profits to be distributed t…

> In general I object to the idea that people who have a lot of money (earned or inherited) create more value than the people working for them. Both sides play a role in this economy and deserve to be respected as value creator.

Right. Efficient economies do reward people according to the value they create. I'm pushing you toward one of the following arguments:

1. Returns on investment are artificially high (relative to wages) because of an inefficiency in the economy 2. We should introduce inefficiency in the economy in order to keep RoIs artificially low (relative to wages)

If (1), then please describe the inefficiencies (you mentioned one possibility--taxes on investment income). If (2), what good could come of this?

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#225

Post by watwut »

wasdfff wrote: post #214
watwut wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, what does get CPS called on you in your area? Second question: how much of it is a need of the child and how much serves more of "social mores controll" function? For the record, I don't actually want to return to 1970 standards. However, I suspect that the extreme micromanagement has multiple reasons, but child's needs are not really the driver.

I agree with your last point. Anecdotally, as a kid I hated having a full schedule of mandatory activities, constant regiment, always getting ready. My friends who were the most stressed and unhappy were the ones with the most extracurricular responsibilities. Yet their parents were always pleased that they took on 4 AP classes, did 3 seasons of sports, lead role in the play, stem program after classes, etc. just to…

A kid can do sport, AP, have lead role in play, have stem club without parent doing micromanagement or spending a lot of time on it.

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#226

Post by TuringNYC »

beat wrote: post #190
T2_t2 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That needs a citation. If you cut out everything we have they didn't - cable TV, Netflix, computers, internet, cafes, restaurants, Kindle, better choices in grocery food and alcohol - and ate the sort of cheap food people lived on, things like meatloaf and crappy ingredient dishes, I reckon it would be entirely possible. The only thing that is prohibitively expensive today vs 1980 is housing. The reasons for that are…

A quick look at education numbers finds that, since 1988, the cost of private four year college has doubled (in inflation-adjusted dollars), and the cost of state four year college has tripled. Again in constant dollars, health care has seen a more than fivefold increase since 1970, from under $2000 to over $10,000 per capita. Constant dollars, mind you. Health care and education costs are more or less fixed and unav…

>> Health care and education costs are more or less fixed and unavoidable. They're more like fees than taxes, flat no matter the income.

Flat if you are lucky enough to be healthy. Enormous once you actually have an issue, like a complicated pregnancy, or something that requires an MRI.

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#227

Post by rhacker »

T2_t2 wrote: post #178
JimboOmega wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, to me, is what really seals it all as ridiculous. My parents had the standard of living they had with only my father working and in a fairly normal government job. That as enough to support my mom and 2 children while also saving for retirement. That standard of living now would require both parents working and being rather successful in their white collar careers. Even as a reasonably successful person in an a…

That needs a citation. If you cut out everything we have they didn't - cable TV, Netflix, computers, internet, cafes, restaurants, Kindle, better choices in grocery food and alcohol - and ate the sort of cheap food people lived on, things like meatloaf and crappy ingredient dishes, I reckon it would be entirely possible. The only thing that is prohibitively expensive today vs 1980 is housing. The reasons for that are…

I think people will stop being NIMBY when people stop being inconsiderate to others and I only see that trend skyrocketing right now.

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#228

Post by maxxxxx »

weberc2 wrote: post #224
maxxxxx wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sorry dude, that's how economies work." There is no natural law that says things have to be that way. The economy is man made and when you look a different countries you'll see that there is a lot variation. There is no natural reason that for example investment income should be taxed lower than employment income. You could come up with a law that requires a certain share of the company's profits to be distributed t…

> In general I object to the idea that people who have a lot of money (earned or inherited) create more value than the people working for them. Both sides play a role in this economy and deserve to be respected as value creator. Right. Efficient economies do reward people according to the value they create. I'm pushing you toward one of the following arguments: 1. Returns on investment are artificially high (relative…

I don't think inefficiency is the right word. How do you determine efficiency of an economy? One person's efficiency may be the other person's loss. It's more about value judgements. Things that should be reevaluated in my view:

* The primacy of shareholders. Workers should be recognized as stakeholders in a company * Preferential tax treatment of investment income * Inheritance tax * Health care * Retirement options

In general I would like to see the balance of power shifted back a little towards workers.

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#229

Post by kurthr »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #132
maxxxxx wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Low inflation doesn't help much if your salary increases get eaten up by housing, education hand healthcare. Rent, health care and education should be counted into inflation numbers.

Wait. Aren't rent, healthcare, AND education all included in the eight components of CPI? Isn't that how the government measures inflation? I think one of the big things left off is housing prices. But I'm pretty sure rent, healthcare, and education are part of it: https://www.bls.gov/cpi/factsheets/medical-care.htm http://webapps.dol.gov/dolfaq/go-dol-faq.asp?faqid=94

Also note that when you're a single earner household you may only need 1 car, eat out less, and don't need day care. Even if the cost of all those items remains the same, your cost of "living" goes up. Now add to that the need for education to maintain an "average" salary, and your costs increase faster than inflation to stay with the average.

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#230

Post by shard972 »

corey_moncure wrote: post #76
old-gregg wrote: post #47

The gains have been looted by the healthcare providers. It is not uncommon for health coverage to exceed $2k/mo for a typical family of 4, that's $24k/year. The median US household income is $59k, so the total comp is $83k/year. See the gains now? This absurd amount is not reflected in a paycheck and one may think "my job pays for it" but that is still your money.

This is correct. I dropped my "Affordable" Care Act plan in January when BCBS quoted a monthly principal increase from $696 to over $2200 for the Silver level plan my family of four had been enrolled in. We are young and healthy. $2200 is monthly rent on a luxury condominium in Honolulu. I asked the agent on the phone if he had children, and if he could afford such a plan. He replied that he could not.

Well thats just going to make health insurance more expensive for more people now isn't it? IIRC poor people get subsidised healthcare now so if the middle class workers aren't paying for healthcare... who is?
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