Green tea supplements ruined my liver • Hacker News Board

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#141

Post by logfromblammo » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 2:42 PM UTC

Tor3 wrote: post #71

nemo846 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an example my son when he was young he liked carrot juice, so give it to him daily, when we went to the doctor she noticed he had is skin colored and told us to stop, I had no idea that too much carrots can be bad Well in your son’s case, it’s not harmful per se according to Wikipedia, Carotenosis is harmless - you will just look orange. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carotenosis

As another poster said, it's all about the dosage. Anything can be a poison. Even water - there have been several cases of people dying from drinking too much water, some side effect of taking ecstacy - they felt thirsty however much they were drinking. Vitamin A is a classic: Too little, and you get blind and your feet start bleeding when you walk. Too much, and you get blind and your feet start bleeding when you wa…

I'm going to go out on a limb, just to be contrarian, and say that no amount of perfluorodecalin is poisonous. You can immerse yourself in it, fill your lungs with it, fill your entire digestive tract with it, and replace a significant amount of your blood with it. It is completely inert to biology, and is readily permeable to atmospheric gases.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorodecalin

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#142

Post by adrianN » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 2:51 PM UTC

illiac_1962 wrote: post #61

zone411 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm because the studies that showed positive effects were not from drinking green tea but from concentrated supplements.

You are ignoring the most comprehensive studies. Population analysis. There are populations that drink green tea regularly as a matter of tradition. Thats how this shit was discovered in the first place.

Population studies don't have control groups and are largely worthless for recommending supplementation. There are just too many confounding factors.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#143

Post by mstaoru » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

trukterious wrote: post #85

Tor3 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be a competition bicyclist - daily training sessions of hours and hours. If you don't get enough magnesium, look at your diet. With normal healthy food you should get more than enough.

>With normal healthy food you should get more than enough. No, I looked into it some years ago and it seems unfeasible. For instance you'd have to eat about 15 stalks/heads of broccoli daily to get the RDA of magnesium, and that amount is likely suboptimal.

I'm working on a food delivery service that helps count macro- and micronutrients (in Shanghai).

RDA of magnesium is ~400mg, which is reachable with ~300g of cooked salmon or halibut (~600 kcal), or 350g cooked navy beans (~250 kcal).

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#144

Post by logfromblammo » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 2:59 PM UTC

bunderbunder wrote: post #140

logfromblammo wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food." --Hippocrates "Walking is man's best medicine." --also Hippocrates There's a syllogism in there somewhere. Probably about soup made from worn-out shoes.

I'm envisioning an offshoot of Paleo where you really do spend all your time hunting and gathering.

Paleo Survival MMO game. All players are required to use an omnidirectional treadmill for movement control, and your nutrition for the day is determined by the resource nodes you harvest. You have to form raid parties and take down whales, mammoths, bison, razorbacks, or aurochs in order to get larger quantities of meat. If you die in the game, you are required to donate one unit of whole blood, and will suffer a crippling movement speed malus every time you log in, until you do. (So don't die more than once every two months.)

I should stop now, before someone starts thinking this might be a good idea.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#145

Post by Matrixik » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 3:00 PM UTC

trukterious wrote: post #134

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then maybe the RDA is just wrong. If we can't eat enough healthy food to sustain us without becoming obese, then the numbers are wrong. I mean, how could we have possibly made it as long as we have as a species if we are only now realizing that we can't eat enough good foods to be healthy???

>how could we have possibly made it as long as we have as a species if we are only now realizing that we can't eat enough good foods to be healthy? Partly due to agricultural soil depletion of certain elements like magnesium, zinc, iodine. Btw our prehistoric ancestors weren't especially healthy either: https://imgur.com/gallery/2G0BDwx

> Partly due to agricultural soil depletion of certain elements like magnesium, zinc, iodine.

Well, maybe yes or maybe no

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915751...

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#146

Post by saiya-jin » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 3:09 PM UTC

Tor3 wrote: post #125

saiya-jin wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons of edge cases where taking some supplements are much better than not taking them. Your argument about some gladiator is a laughable one - who knows what they ate 2000 years ago, what their actual health was? They needed to fight and often die, nobody cared if they have a healthy retirement. I personally take multivitamin supplements, but the key to me is moderation - half a tablet on workout day, which…

> 'who knows that they ate 2000 years ago, what their actual health was?' That's not so difficult as you think. What you eat is preserved in your teeth and bone. See https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-did-gladiators-ea... As for what their health was - again, you can find out a lot from bones. And, as you said, they needed to fight. You don't do that for very long without a certain level of health. When you d…

If I am 15-20% heavier than average human, then getting extra 15% of minerals with supplements sounds like a good idea to actually meet daily requirements. You make claims that we are all OK and shouldn't take anything, but you have no clue what I eat, how much, or what are specifics of my body - that's not very scientific statement. I still haven't seen anything scientific stating that 15% extra intake in most common minerals should bring anything but benefits.

What minerals can be used for - Mg for preventing muscle cramps (scientifically and practically proven), Fe for altitude acclimatization (more red blood cells to transport oxygen), Ca for teeth and bones. Its proven that weightlifting makes your bones denser/thicker, so I supply my body with a bit of extra of material.

As for Vitamins, water-soluble will be washed away (and its always good to have a bit extra of vitamin C), and the fat-soluble are actually less than recommended doses last time I checked (particularly Vitamin D, and as said I take 1/2 of it).

What I consider important is to take it with big meal which contains tons of stuff - especially fats and some fiber. That way body has a more gradual intake of these, and stays in stomach/intestines for longer.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#147

Post by ntsplnkv2 » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 3:44 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #100

Tor3 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general rule is: You don't need supplements. Period. That's because supplements provide (or are supposed to provide) trace elements that you need, but you only need a little bit of it. Like minerals and certain vitamins etc. The thing is - you basically need the same (trace) amount of it, whatever your lifestyle is. And you get it through eating a normal varied diet (e.g. a little meat, vegetables, some fish and…

There are tons of edge cases where taking some supplements are much better than not taking them. Your argument about some gladiator is a laughable one - who knows what they ate 2000 years ago, what their actual health was? They needed to fight and often die, nobody cared if they have a healthy retirement. I personally take multivitamin supplements, but the key to me is moderation - half a tablet on workout day, which…

What are the measurements, then?

How do we know that none of this is placebo.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#148

Post by nate_meurer » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

bshep wrote: post #92

I work in a transplant hospital ( for liver and other organs ) and we see A LOT of people with liver damage from suplements ( green tea, valerian root, etc ) I would recommend against any supplements unless you clear them with your doctor, some are ok like VitD ( in the correct dosage ) others are downright dangerous.

Interesting. How do you distinguish damage due to supplements from other causes, like viral hepatitis or alcohol?

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#149

Post by bshep » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 4:38 PM UTC

nate_meurer wrote: post #148

bshep wrote: post #92

I work in a transplant hospital ( for liver and other organs ) and we see A LOT of people with liver damage from suplements ( green tea, valerian root, etc ) I would recommend against any supplements unless you clear them with your doctor, some are ok like VitD ( in the correct dosage ) others are downright dangerous.

Interesting. How do you distinguish damage due to supplements from other causes, like viral hepatitis or alcohol?

Liver Biopsy - appearance is different depending on etiology

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#150

Post by vlan0 » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 4:52 PM UTC

Tor3 wrote: post #118

vlan0 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Say, if you are a vegan with a sedentary life style. You're simply not getting enough of the trace elements through the restricted type of food you eat. I'm unsure what the sedentary life style has to due with not getting adequate nutrition. A balanced vegan diet generally will easily cover all your bases. The only worry is B12, and even that is easily overcome with fortified milk alternatives. Just look at Jon's fo…

> I'm unsure what the sedentary life style has to due with not getting adequate nutrition. A balanced vegan diet generally will easily cover all your bases. The only worry is B12, and even that is easily overcome with fortified milk alternatives. It's easy: You need a certain amount of trace elements every day: Some iron, some minerals, etc. The food you eat contains a bit of that. If you don't eat enough of that foo…

>But let's go back to my initial statement: "The general rule is: You don't need supplements." What you are saying doesn't contradict that. What I meant with my too long additonal comments was just that the more you need to eat (e.g. due to exercise), the less supplements you need - if you ever needed any at all. Which is the opposite of how certain "health" and training magazines state it.

I did not present a counter argument for your initial statement. That was not my concern and I agree with your statement.

The main issue was the conclusion you were drawing between a sedentary lifestyle on a vegan diet. Considering vegetables are some of the most nutrient-dense foods relative to their calorie content, sedentary vegans following a diet rich in these low-calorie nutrient-dense foods will have an advantage over people who consume animal meat and follow the same calorie count.