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42 (school)

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141–150 of 152 posts

Re: 42 (school)

#141
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seriously wonder about the proportion of architects who ever mixed any concrete themselves in their lives. Seriously, almost no developer would be able to write a compiler today. The same way I wouldn't be able to build a micro-processor worth anything. You wouldn't expect any compiler knowledge from most web (back or front) developers, the same way you wouldn't expect much GUI or globally distributed consistent da…

I'm software developer (backend, fronted, cloud, embedded, etc), but it's often very helpful to know how hardware works, how processor works, how kernel works, how compiler works, how network works, and so on, because it's allow me to make my abstraction at top of all these layers to work much more efficient. It's not expected that I will be expert in all that, but it's expected that I will know basics, so I will not…

I'm a software developer too. Mostly mobile and backend.

On the mobile part, most of the clients have pretty much no idea what a processor really is, or how networks work. Hell, I have to explain to them that if they want to build this kittens social network, they're going to need a back-end and that no, it doesn't matter to the mobile apps what language their back-end is written in (and vice-versa).

For most of what these people ask, all you need to know are the basics of Android and iOS's SDKs and how to make API calls. Half the time, their isn't even any networking involved !

I'd be thrilled to work in an environment where this kind of knowledge matters. But like most people I'm stuck working with some people who'll tell you that they don't want to be software developers; it's just a means to an end to them (which is fine. Just don't use that as a shoddy excuse for doing crap), refactoring codebases built by some kids who don't have any software architecture knowledge and don't see the problem in their network layers popping modals and alerts, wondering how on earth a view could end up being a singleton (and no, "I was somehow convinced I needed to access it and change it's properties from this class over there" is not a satisfactory answer) or spend half my day on a single rebase because of some git submodule crap.

So yeah, for most of the people I've had the 'delight' of working with, they are missing so much that no, hardware intricacies, processors inner working, compilers logic and functioning or networking knowledge aren't the critical aspects they're missing.

Heck, I'd be glad if their code was even just readable and had anything resembling an architecture. Or if they didn't turn everything and anything into a singleton whenever they felt like it.

I'm going to stop now. But going back to the architects analogy, if these developers where architects, then most of those I've met can't tell the difference between plumbing and electrical wiring, so I'd be glad if they left the concrete to the craftsmen and at least managed the basics of their jobs' specifics.

Re: 42 (school)

#142
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm software developer (backend, fronted, cloud, embedded, etc), but it's often very helpful to know how hardware works, how processor works, how kernel works, how compiler works, how network works, and so on, because it's allow me to make my abstraction at top of all these layers to work much more efficient. It's not expected that I will be expert in all that, but it's expected that I will know basics, so I will not…

I'm a software developer too. Mostly mobile and backend. On the mobile part, most of the clients have pretty much no idea what a processor really is, or how networks work. Hell, I have to explain to them that if they want to build this kittens social network, they're going to need a back-end and that no, it doesn't matter to the mobile apps what language their back-end is written in (and vice-versa). For most of what…

Software scientist != software/hardware engineer != software/hardware developer != programmer/coder.

Programmer must know how to program.

Software developer must know how to make good software product.

Software engineer must know how to understand and meet specifications, follow engineering codex, and son on.

And so on.

I'm talking about software developers. You are showing me examples unrelated to professional software product development at all. Moreover, there are lot of professionals in IT, but only part of them are software developers.

So we are just talking about different things: you are talking about "someone who sits in front in compute and enters programming code", while I'm talking about professional Software Developer, short segment of IT professionals, subset of programmers.

Re: 42 (school)

#143
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

totally different. 42 is a real school with a, I believe, 3-year program.

I'm not saying it's the same, I'm saying they share a similar ethos: "The school does not have any professors, does not issue any diploma or degree, and is open 24/7. The training is inspired by new modern ways to teach which include peer-to-peer pedagogy and project-based learning."

still completely different, at recurse you are free to choose whatever you want to do, whereas 42 has lists of exercises, challenges and exams that you must go through.

Re: 42 (school)

#144
post #48
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

totally different. 42 is a real school with a, I believe, 3-year program.

What do you mean by a "real" school? Are they accredited and give degrees?

I'm not sure if they give out a degree, but they have a real program that you must follow, and exams.

Re: 42 (school)

#145
post #24
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My opinion is that you have a close division of very good students, good students, average students, mediocre student, etc. in both the public schools and the more private ones. I'd say that it seems like it's easier to make it as an average/mediocre person if you're doing epitech, 101, 42, etc. If you're very good, it seems like you'll do better with a more beefy theoretical background

> I'd say that it seems like it's easier to make it as an average/mediocre person if you're doing epitech, 101, 42, etc. You could just as well learn all the theory by heart, do not know how to use it in practical situations, forget it after the exams and pass just fine in most public schools as well. If you're bad and not willing, you're gonna be bad, no education will save you

yup, but if you do that, you are not good.

Re: 42 (school)

#146
post #32

Having interviewed a bunch of 42 graduates, my main issue with 42 is that it doesn't teach their students to think about what they're doing, encouraging them instead to rush to the keyboard and emit as much code as they can as if programming for the last day of their project. This seems to resonate well with the culture of piscines at 42. To me, this is as silly as training Biathlon athletes to not even aim before th…

I'm sure your critique is the same with graduates from any school. You need experience to understand not to do that. At least 42 seems to give you more experience than most schools.

Re: 42 (school)

#147
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they modelled it after Epita which was also about code, code, code. Also, while it's nice that Xavier Niel finances a school that is free, most of the universities and Grandes Ecoles (where many developers graduate from) are also free, and financed with public money. They work great and produce really skilled developers and architects. The reality is that Xavier Niel didn't do a Grandes Ecoles, he's mostly self-…

That totally sounds like gossip to me. I'm very sceptical that "he [created] a school [as a] kind of a middle finger to them".

his grisp against big french institutions is very real and documented. Look at how he started his company Free, telling people that if they stayed at the big telecom companies they were "pigeon".

Re: 42 (school)

#148
post #10

This kind of discussion will end up being the typical (French) disdain between people learning engineering in the public schools v/s the ones learning in these "practical teaching" private schools and vice versa. There are good engineers in both, both have different approach to teach which fit different people. Both do generally good in the private sector after they're done with it. As usual the people graduating fro…

You forgot to mention the private schools are expensive and use a somewhat pyramidal scheme where older students teach newer ones to repaid part of their school fees. In public education all teachers hold PhD or engineer titles so they have more years to think about what they teach than the guy who is only year+2 of the teachee. Edit: I checked Epitech tuition fees, it's around 40k€ for the whole 5 years curriculum.…

having been through university in France, I can tell you that the PhD teachers give no shit about their students or how they teach their courses.

Re: 42 (school)

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> private schools are expensive > I checked Epitech tuition fees, it's around 40k€ for the whole 5 years curriculum $9100 a year is indeed expensive for French schools, but I'm sure some Americans on the other side of the ponds are chuckling right now.

For comparison purposes, tuition fees in a French public engineering school were around 700€/$800 per year when I was there about a decade ago, and I wouldn't expect this to have changed much.

For comparison purposes, tuition fees in a French university were around 0$

Re: 42 (school)

#150
post #57

I am very happy about this trend of project-oriented, deferred-tuition programming trade schools. So far I know of: - 42 (France and Bay Area) - Lambda School (online) - Holberton (Bay Area) - There is also Epitech (France) which is the "ancestor" of both Holberton and 42. They don't defer tuition, but have the same project-oriented, TA-intensive curriculum. It's still early and all these schools have their strengths…

101 in Lyon
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