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America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

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Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#71

Post by dudul »

dkhenry wrote: post #63
firedrakerage wrote: post #11

I do not typically post, but these suggestions seem like genuine improvements to the existing system: "Kerr suggests allocating H-1Bs not by lottery as they are now, but by salary — the more that a company is willing to pay for a foreign worker, the quicker they can get a visa." "A second change would be to allow H-1B workers to apply for permanent residency green cards on their own, without having to be sponsored by…

you can get the same effect on salary by making it easier for a H1B recipient to leave the company that brought them over. Right now its very hard for a visa recipient to move companies so they can be given sub market rate salaries, if you make it so once they show up they can move to get a market rate salary then the companies who make a pratice of hiring foreign talent and paying them below market rates will end. T…

In theory it is not very complicated for a H1B to change employer. It simply requires the employer to file a petition to sponsor the H1B. It doesn't count towards the "seats" available yearly, and it's almost guaranteed to be granted. There is a small cost, maybe a few grands. If you think about it, it's way cheaper than paying recruiter fee fo example.

In practice you're right though. Most companies have limited experience with this process and just don't want to get into it.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#72

Post by Apocryphon »

enraged_camel wrote: post #54
protonfish wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That and a complete unwillingness to educate and mentor your workforce. I don't understand why the government should step in to help employers because they want training to be somebody else's problem.

Companies don't train their workforce because said workforce then leaves and joins another company, which then benefits from that training. ...that's how it was explained to me by an executive at my former job (a big part of the reason why it's my former job).

California is an at-will state and all that, but surely executives and business consultants can structure some sort of incentive package to cause workers to stay for at least some minimum duration?

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#73

Post by rhexs »

mohaine wrote: post #27
Kephael wrote: post #7

The supply of technical workers is artificially limited by Leetcode style interviews. There doesn't seem to be an actual supply side limitation, especially not at the entry level.

Maybe on the west coast but here in the Midwest we often have issues finding candidates that can write fizzbuz. We recently had a candidate who's main language was python but failed to even run his code on the command line. Saddly this isnt overly rare.

Sounds like you need to pay more, have a better working environment, else work on your recruiting pipeline. A phone interview should be able to sniff that out quickly.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#74

Post by max76 »

mohaine wrote: post #27
Kephael wrote: post #7

The supply of technical workers is artificially limited by Leetcode style interviews. There doesn't seem to be an actual supply side limitation, especially not at the entry level.

Maybe on the west coast but here in the Midwest we often have issues finding candidates that can write fizzbuz. We recently had a candidate who's main language was python but failed to even run his code on the command line. Saddly this isnt overly rare.

I use to work in the midwest before moving to the west coast.

We had a guy come in for a programming interview. He claimed to have 3 years experience with a programming language we commonly use. We gave him a simple challenge (connect to a database using a database connector, read some fields and update another field based on data from the read fields). We told him it's fine to use google, and left him alone for four hours with a computer.

He asked to expand his interview time at the end of the four hours, we grant him an additional two hours. At the end he didn't have code that compiled, much less connected to the database.

This story is not atypical from my experience.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#75

Post by jmpman »

This still seems like a waste of resources. If the H1Bs are willing to come over for $40k, why should a bidding war result in them being paid $100k? Have the companies bid on slots. That money is a tax that should be used to train US workers for that same job. Pay the H1B $40k, pay a tax of $60k, and in 4 years you have a newly minted US College graduate qualified to do that job, with no college debt, and they’ll be willing to take the job for $80k.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#76

Post by thrmsforbfast »

bduerst wrote: post #33
firedrakerage wrote: post #11

I do not typically post, but these suggestions seem like genuine improvements to the existing system: "Kerr suggests allocating H-1Bs not by lottery as they are now, but by salary — the more that a company is willing to pay for a foreign worker, the quicker they can get a visa." "A second change would be to allow H-1B workers to apply for permanent residency green cards on their own, without having to be sponsored by…

The problem is that pay isn't uniform across skilled labor demand, and the purpose of the H1B program is to fulfill demand in the economy. If you set a quota and give to the highest bidder, you're going to see private sector executives and financial roles being filled in cities with high costs of living and competitive wages. Salary is a function not only of demand but also location and industry. This will discrimina…

> If you set a quota and give to the highest bidder, you're going to see private sector executives, lawyers, and financial roles being filled in cities with high costs of living and competitive wages.

Yes, that's the point. Skilled labor immigration is for skilled labor.

It should not by a subsidy to companies that cannot afford to pay prevailing wages and/or are unwilling to invest in their workforce.

> This will deprive rural and middle America of the skilled labor that they need to survive.

Middle America will be fine; Chicago, KC, Pittsburgh, etc. can and do compete with the coasts for skilled labor!

That said, I could get behind a rule that adjusts for cost of living so that e.g. 100k in Pittsburgh or KC == 200k in SF. That seems fair.

As for rural America, there's a reason these areas can't attract companies or talent.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#77

Post by ivl »

zjaffee wrote: post #58
ivl wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This will deprive rural and middle America on the skilled labor that they need to survive. That's kind of already happened. Since the recession almost all new jobs created were in cities and metro areas, and mostly to educated workers. Rural and middle America have this problem all on their own: skilled labor does not want to live in rural and middle America. Especially young skilled workers. There's even the conce…

> skilled labor does not want to live in rural and middle America. I'm unsure about this, and think it's kind of a chicken and the egg problem. I know tons of people who are from the midwest that would prefer to be there, but tend to flock to the coast simply because it's hard to find as rigorous of a professional environment back home.

It's not a chicken and egg problem. Cities are much more efficient for labor and companies. You have a larger pool of talent, a larger pool of freshly educated replacements for those who retire or leave, and often more services available for said talent.

Edit: Now that I'm thinking about it a little more I can maybe sympathize a little bit. I prefer to live in rural areas in some ways due to my hobbies, but I'm never going to as the economics of a tech company, or even a company that needs skilled, educated workers makes no sense in rural areas. So there's something to the want vs. choice angle, but what one fantasizes about has little to do with economic realities. Plenty of people want high paying low skilled manufacturing jobs to be a thing again, that doesn't mean it's realistically going to happen.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#78

Post by robotrout »

israrkhan wrote: post #28
firedrakerage wrote: post #11

I do not typically post, but these suggestions seem like genuine improvements to the existing system: "Kerr suggests allocating H-1Bs not by lottery as they are now, but by salary — the more that a company is willing to pay for a foreign worker, the quicker they can get a visa." "A second change would be to allow H-1B workers to apply for permanent residency green cards on their own, without having to be sponsored by…

This would result in most H1B allocations on east/west coast, where salaries (and cost of living) are relatively higher. I think this is already the case, but enforcing it by salary will result in a wider gap. Companies operating in low "cost of living" areas, will not be able to get skilled workers on H1Bs.

I"m not sure this should be a consideration. If that midwest company cannot compete, it should not exist. That is tghe essence of capitalism. You should not subsidize it by making it not compete fairly for H1B applicants.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#79

Post by dudul »

damnyou wrote: post #60
dudul wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The choice of word is interesting: encouraging immigration of skilled workers to the US has the benefit of preventing them from participating in the development of their home country. Short term, sure it's beneficial for the US, but I don't think it's a good idea to reflect in a vacuum or only thinking short term. Emergent countries being able to develop is beneficial for everybody.

What about the immigrants ? It's a huge benefit to them!

Of course, but that's not what the original message was pointing out. Comparing countries stealing other countries skilled workers and companies poaching employees is not a good idea IMO, that's all.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#80

Post by ska »

ericdykstra wrote: post #66
gotocake wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not a machine to affordably and accurately pick strawberries or citrus, or clean your house and office park. Let’s not pretend that the demand for relatively unskilled work isn’t very high, because the work is perceived to be beneath the dignity or price range or natives. It would be nice if we could benefit from the immigrants willing and able to do this hard and unpleasant work, without also castigating them fo…

You'll find Americans to do the work if you pay them enough. Why undercut their wage demands with scabs from foreign countries?

Because when they do that Americans on average won't buy the produce, and opt instead for cheaper imports.

You can make such a system work of course but you have to convince or force (e.g. via import duties) Americans to accept paying more for food - quite a bit more.

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