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The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher

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Re: The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher

#11
It's unpleasant how many of his points just ring true in my mind instantly. I connected it with PG's essay, too, where he asks why students should have to ask to go to the bathroom.

But my theory is that a school system cannot be designed in a one-size-fits-all sort of way. There are students who will take advantage of lenient teachers, instead of learning. It is because of them that the rest of the students cannot progress as they could have.

I've wondered about it often. I have no idea what to do. None.

Re: The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher

#12
post #8

It occurred to me some time ago that many things are confusing because they are improperly named. For example, the label "Education System" is confusing because it implies that the system in question is primarily about education. Having accepted the premise, you now have many paradoxes to explain. But if you change the label to, say, "Child Processing Factories", most of the paradoxes disappear. Edit: I originally wr…

There is a book called The Addictive Organization that touches on this. Below are a couple thoughts and excerpts cut-and-pasted from my notes: "What makes the organization addictive is the promise it makes to every employee about the future, which takes them out of the here and now." These promises involve power, money, influence, and social acceptance, the same as the promises of pop culture made-for-TV society. Hav…

It seems we have similar interests. I've run across The Addictive Organization too, in addition to Gatto, though in his case I read Dumbing Us Down, not the book you cited. Gatto seems courageous to me; a real freethinker.

Was it Durkheim who said that the first purpose of any large organization is to perpetuate itself, and only secondarily to accomplish whatever mandate it may have?

Re: The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher

#13

It's unpleasant how many of his points just ring true in my mind instantly. I connected it with PG's essay, too, where he asks why students should have to ask to go to the bathroom. But my theory is that a school system cannot be designed in a one-size-fits-all sort of way. There are students who will take advantage of lenient teachers, instead of learning. It is because of them that the rest of the students cannot p…

I've wondered about it often. I have no idea what to do. None.

I sympathize. It seems to me that part of the block comes from defining the problem monolithically: how can we take the standard system we have and make a better standard system out of it? Nobody seems to have a good answer to that. Maybe we should stop asking it and instead go through a period of decentralization and even destandardization. Let all sorts of experiments be tried. There's a study I read about that showed that when great schools or great teachers achieve amazing things, attempts to reproduce what they do almost always fail. The problem seems to be in the systematizing impulse itself. Can there even be a bureaucracy that sustains life, joy, creativity?

Here's an example of what I mean (I may have even got this from Gatto). In the traditional one-room farm schoolhouse, there weren't enough children to segregate by age, so by necessity they would work side by side on different things. This has interesting effects. You no longer have the problem that not all kids are at the same level; each is working at his/her level anyway. So, no reason why a bright 9-year-old can't study math with the 15-year-olds (but play with kids their own age at recess). Another example is that because one teacher simply can't address all the different subjects at once, older kids end up teaching and mentoring younger ones. Think of the organizational contortions required to set up things like this in most schools. Of course, I'm not saying that everyone should go to a one-room farm school. My point is that we need a great deal more diversity and that maybe policy should support this instead of trying to fix everything the same way (or even at all).

People will cry out about the risks of destandardization but really, if you stop to think about it, kids want to learn. Passionately. They're hard-wired to do it. What we should be asking is not how we can get them to learn but how we ever manage to program the desire out of them. Personal anecdote: when my daughter was in the third grade (and had a teacher she loved), she would get up in the morning and literally jump for joy that she was going to school. I don't mean little bunny hops... I mean she would jump up and down bigtime and sing "I'm going to schooooool!" Just a short time later (after the teacher she loved was fired and not even allowed to say goodbye to the class... different story) a pallor that I can only call depression came over her about everything associated with school. It took years for signs of intellectual excitement to return.

Re: The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher

#14
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a book called The Addictive Organization that touches on this. Below are a couple thoughts and excerpts cut-and-pasted from my notes: "What makes the organization addictive is the promise it makes to every employee about the future, which takes them out of the here and now." These promises involve power, money, influence, and social acceptance, the same as the promises of pop culture made-for-TV society. Hav…

It seems we have similar interests. I've run across The Addictive Organization too, in addition to Gatto, though in his case I read Dumbing Us Down , not the book you cited. Gatto seems courageous to me; a real freethinker. Was it Durkheim who said that the first purpose of any large organization is to perpetuate itself, and only secondarily to accomplish whatever mandate it may have?

Not sure about that specific quote, but I know that one of Durkheim's main interests was how organizations, institutions, and culture reproduce themselves, so it would make sense.

I haven't read Dumbing Us Down yet, although I think Underground History was meant to supersede it. I'm sure I'll check it out eventually though.

There is a cool video series with him here too:

http://www.edflix.org/gatto.htm

It starts off with a rather poor summary of the book, but then he eventually makes a few important novel points. He comes up with a list of patterns that separate the nation's elite boarding schools from our public schools. Pretty important stuff, albeit you need to sit through the rest of the video to get at it.

Re: The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher

#15
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems we have similar interests. I've run across The Addictive Organization too, in addition to Gatto, though in his case I read Dumbing Us Down , not the book you cited. Gatto seems courageous to me; a real freethinker. Was it Durkheim who said that the first purpose of any large organization is to perpetuate itself, and only secondarily to accomplish whatever mandate it may have?

Not sure about that specific quote, but I know that one of Durkheim's main interests was how organizations, institutions, and culture reproduce themselves, so it would make sense. I haven't read Dumbing Us Down yet, although I think Underground History was meant to supersede it. I'm sure I'll check it out eventually though. There is a cool video series with him here too: http://www.edflix.org/gatto.htm It starts off…

Just popped into my mind: do you know the book "Systemantics" (also known as "The Systems Bible") by John Gall? It's not on education but is very much in the space we're discussing. It's a brilliant (and hilarious) underground classic. I think you would like it. A lot of people here would. It's irreverent and subversive and incredibly smart and not rigid.

One of its more famous aphorisms (relevant to the software startup crowd) is "A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that worked".

http://www.amazon.com/Systems-Bible-Beginners-Guide-Large/dp...

Re: The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher

#16
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about that specific quote, but I know that one of Durkheim's main interests was how organizations, institutions, and culture reproduce themselves, so it would make sense. I haven't read Dumbing Us Down yet, although I think Underground History was meant to supersede it. I'm sure I'll check it out eventually though. There is a cool video series with him here too: http://www.edflix.org/gatto.htm It starts off…

Just popped into my mind: do you know the book "Systemantics" (also known as "The Systems Bible") by John Gall? It's not on education but is very much in the space we're discussing. It's a brilliant (and hilarious) underground classic. I think you would like it. A lot of people here would. It's irreverent and subversive and incredibly smart and not rigid. One of its more famous aphorisms (relevant to the software sta…

Thanks for the tip, I added it to my Amazon cart. (Although I already have far too much reading I need to do for my startup at the moment.)

Re: The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher

#17
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just popped into my mind: do you know the book "Systemantics" (also known as "The Systems Bible") by John Gall? It's not on education but is very much in the space we're discussing. It's a brilliant (and hilarious) underground classic. I think you would like it. A lot of people here would. It's irreverent and subversive and incredibly smart and not rigid. One of its more famous aphorisms (relevant to the software sta…

Thanks for the tip, I added it to my Amazon cart. (Although I already have far too much reading I need to do for my startup at the moment.)

Heh. This is light reading, the sort of thing you can have fun with for a few pages before falling asleep.

Re: The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher

#18
Alex3917 - Thank you sir. I really don't have any words to describe what I felt after I read this article. And thank you for the book references. I will be sure to follow up on those.

Mr. Gatto - I certainly hope we can see some of the ideas you suggested in our lifetimes. I am sure it will make for a much better world.

Re: The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher

#19
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a book called The Addictive Organization that touches on this. Below are a couple thoughts and excerpts cut-and-pasted from my notes: "What makes the organization addictive is the promise it makes to every employee about the future, which takes them out of the here and now." These promises involve power, money, influence, and social acceptance, the same as the promises of pop culture made-for-TV society. Hav…

It seems we have similar interests. I've run across The Addictive Organization too, in addition to Gatto, though in his case I read Dumbing Us Down , not the book you cited. Gatto seems courageous to me; a real freethinker. Was it Durkheim who said that the first purpose of any large organization is to perpetuate itself, and only secondarily to accomplish whatever mandate it may have?

>Was it Durkheim who said that the first purpose of any large organization is to perpetuate itself, and only secondarily to accomplish whatever mandate it may have?

I'm not sure about Durkheim, but I am a big fan of Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy: "Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself. Examples in education would be teachers who work and sacrifice to teach children, vs. union representative who work to protect any teacher including the most incompetent. The Iron Law states that in all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."

(http://www.jerrypournelle.com/archives2/archives2view/view40...)

Re: The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher

#20
post #13

It's unpleasant how many of his points just ring true in my mind instantly. I connected it with PG's essay, too, where he asks why students should have to ask to go to the bathroom. But my theory is that a school system cannot be designed in a one-size-fits-all sort of way. There are students who will take advantage of lenient teachers, instead of learning. It is because of them that the rest of the students cannot p…

I've wondered about it often. I have no idea what to do. None. I sympathize. It seems to me that part of the block comes from defining the problem monolithically: how can we take the standard system we have and make a better standard system out of it? Nobody seems to have a good answer to that. Maybe we should stop asking it and instead go through a period of decentralization and even destandardization. Let all sorts…

Whoa. Your story is pretty... well, unpleasant, I suppose. Especially at such a young age. It's all too often that people give up on education just because the school system sucks.

At my school, I'm branded as a "nerd", often because I don't think I've joined that group of people who have given up on intellectual curiosity just because the school system is inadequate. What bothers me, though, is that such an attitude is pervasive through a very large portion of my school, even though it is an advanced program school.

Ah well. I hope it will become better. Maybe I'll be able to do something about it someday. I'd certainly love to.

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