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How Hillsong Church conquered the music industry

christiandailyjournal.com

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Re: How Hillsong Church conquered the music industry

#81
post #45

I went to a few Hillsong events about 10 years ago, when the church was becoming very obvious cultural influence Australia-wide. There is a lot that's very entrepreneurial about this church. They also started Gloria Jean's, a big, international Starbucks competitor. Like the music stuff, this had to do with youth culture and creating social aspects to the movement. In Australia a lot of people called the denomination…

> just because they've been "making things happen". Actually, my biggest fear about Christianity in the USA today is that it's NOT "making things happen" Or, perhaps more accurately, the things that it's making happen are businesses. The mainline congregations and Catholics of the 19th and early-mid 20th centuries made serious contributions to: 1. Education. In addition to the obvious middle and high schools, they st…

I think it's also a result in a shift of the faith traditions. I'm not very religious, so I'm going to get some of this wrong but: there's been a shift in theological thinking in the US, where in the past good deeds were required as a demonstration of faith. With a lot of the mainstream evangelical churches, the belief is that accepting Jesus is the only requirement for salvation. I think that's why so much of #1 and #4 don't happen as much anymore.

(corrections welcome, and I know there's a succinct summary for this contrast that I'm blanking on)

Re: How Hillsong Church conquered the music industry

#82
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just because they've been "making things happen". Actually, my biggest fear about Christianity in the USA today is that it's NOT "making things happen" Or, perhaps more accurately, the things that it's making happen are businesses. The mainline congregations and Catholics of the 19th and early-mid 20th centuries made serious contributions to: 1. Education. In addition to the obvious middle and high schools, they st…

I think it's also a result in a shift of the faith traditions. I'm not very religious, so I'm going to get some of this wrong but: there's been a shift in theological thinking in the US, where in the past good deeds were required as a demonstration of faith. With a lot of the mainstream evangelical churches, the belief is that accepting Jesus is the only requirement for salvation. I think that's why so much of #1 and…

In the Christian tradition, good deeds should result from one's faith, not be the foundation or requirement for it.

There has been great controversy over this between varying denominations, both in terminology and in belief -- it's not a universal belief among the varying faith traditions and hasn't been universal at any time in the past to now.

Re: How Hillsong Church conquered the music industry

#83
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just because they've been "making things happen". Actually, my biggest fear about Christianity in the USA today is that it's NOT "making things happen" Or, perhaps more accurately, the things that it's making happen are businesses. The mainline congregations and Catholics of the 19th and early-mid 20th centuries made serious contributions to: 1. Education. In addition to the obvious middle and high schools, they st…

I am looking at this as an outsider. I'm European, and even though charismatic churches are global, their history is american. Anyway... I see your point. It's true. But, you need to remember that american catholic and "mainline protestant" churches mostly descend from a state religion origin. The american revolution's secularism totally changed the role of the church. The church-state seperation (which is still very…

This is a good point when comparing USA churches with their European counter-parts.

However, the comparison I was making was specifically about the USA.

Even without tax/public funds (or preferential tax treatment), American christian churches did engage in all of the things you list.

There are hundreds of private, non-tax-funded middle schools, high schools, colleges, universities, and seminaries in the USA.

Many of our hospital systems (that have long sense become beasts unto themselves) were started as religious charities without state funding.

Almost all non-state-owned orphanages and homeless shelters were religiously affiliated charities that did not receive state funds.

And many of these things were done by home-grown congregations.

In an American context, the fact that the church did fill these roles even without preferential state support -- in fact, in a country where preferential state support was explicitly forbidden -- just makes the "then vs. now" comparison that much more concerning.

Re: How Hillsong Church conquered the music industry

#84
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that inconsistent with Christian theology? Theology is diverse and different schools hold different, often contradictory views on any given topic. Usually what is called “Christian theology” is that for which there is a general consensus among theologians, and I’m unaware of any such consensus on this particular subject.

In the year 2018, Christian theology is almost infinitely diverse, but it wasn't always so. That diversity is very modern. For the vast majority of Christian history, the sacramental role of music in Christianity was essentially a universal given. It wasn't until the Protestant Reformation that anyone even considered divorcing music from sacramental theology and it wasn't until the mid-20th century that the idea of c…

> To speak authoritatively of "Christian theology" in the context of music in any meaningful sense, a "vote" needs to be given to every generation of Christians, not just the current one.

Definitely, but we also need to consider that before the industrial revolution, Christians were limited in their options (most folks were very poor by modern standards, there isn't much diversity in music in general, and there is a comparatively narrow [and at various times, more corrupt] group of people making decisions on theology and music). So we need to consider history, but we don't weight all history evenly--there is such a thing as 'progress', after all.

Re: How Hillsong Church conquered the music industry

#85
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. When I moved into a new area and was "church hunting", one of my stops was the largest church in the area, with multiple satellite campuses. I realized why it was so popular: every Sunday was a big production. People were going to be entertained, not engaged. There's definitely a continuum, though. There are small churches doing the traditional thing just as there's megachurches doing God, Inc. The church I a…

Semi-related: How are the scout troops out of those two types of churches? Is there a big difference between the mega and the regular church sponsored scout troops? We're starting to look for a good one and would love to know what to look out for, if anything.

With the larger churches you can get more people showing up so that can be good, but it depends how it's run.

There are some that break down every non-Sunday-sermon level thing into a "small group" level of organization, and the quality varies by who leads. They also could have more budget to do better trips or activities.

Smaller venues trade population for intimacy. More one on one time to invest.

When you get down to it, my (albeit limited) experience has been the size doesn't matter as much as the people involved. Hopefully that helps!

Re: How Hillsong Church conquered the music industry

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really a scam if it’s what taxpayers want? I don’t think this is interesting because any conservative trend. It’s a cool business hack that allows you to make money without taxes.

I would argue that all religious tax-dodges are scams if you're an atheist. My businesses and lack of faith don't get a free-ride, but I have to subsidize that of somebody else's? By this logic, it's a cool business hack to run a megachurch and buy your own 737 without paying taxes, not a scam?

You aren't really subsidising it, unless you're making the argument that if organisations - such as Hillsong - paid taxes the overall tax rate would be lowered for all? Ideally this might be true but the cynic in me suggests it wouldn't... well, that and the fact that their income within a given country is relatively insignificant as compared to GDP within that country.

Moreover:

1) Hillsong runs substantially on donations and purchases of their merchandise (including music). Most of the people who give or buy their merchandise are taxpayers themselves.

2) Anyone paid as an employee by Hillsong will pay taxes, just like everyone else. I don't know much about the lifestyles of their senior employees/leaders - maybe it's a televangelist-style Gulfstream-and-champagne-fest, maybe not.

3) We know Hillsong earn a lot of money but we don't know that they keep very much of it[1]. If they're anything like HTB, they quite likely don't[2]: the vast majority will be spent on staffing, ministry, along with a chunk given to support other organisations and causes. Ministry means everything from what you see on a Sunday and special events through to social initiatives such as food banks, homeless shelters, childrens' work, soup kitchens, and educational initiatives (and more) that many churches either support or run.

Point (3) is important because it's the point that makes a church a net good within society (or not, in the absence of it). If they're not a net good then I'd be more inclined to agree that, yes, they should be taxed as businesses rather than not taxed as though they're charities. Quantifying that is obviously non-trivial.

[1] It's possible they do but I don't have any information to hand on this.

[2] At a pure numbers level this is something that distinguishes a charity from a (healthy) business: one does not generate a profit (which is not to say the money shouldn't be used carefully and beneficially: clearly it should), whilst the other does.

Re: How Hillsong Church conquered the music industry

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just because they've been "making things happen". Actually, my biggest fear about Christianity in the USA today is that it's NOT "making things happen" Or, perhaps more accurately, the things that it's making happen are businesses. The mainline congregations and Catholics of the 19th and early-mid 20th centuries made serious contributions to: 1. Education. In addition to the obvious middle and high schools, they st…

Agreed. When I moved into a new area and was "church hunting", one of my stops was the largest church in the area, with multiple satellite campuses. I realized why it was so popular: every Sunday was a big production. People were going to be entertained, not engaged. There's definitely a continuum, though. There are small churches doing the traditional thing just as there's megachurches doing God, Inc. The church I a…

Big churches that are charismatic and feel like concert venues (The Rock Church here in San Diego for instance) I don't feel are necessarily bad. If that is the door into religion then one could find their way to another congregation like the Methodists who truly focus on good works (help for those recently out of prisons, etc).

Re: How Hillsong Church conquered the music industry

#88
Hillsong NYC volunteer software engineer here. We’re passionate about using our skills to serve the local community in addition to our church. Shoot me an email if you’re in the area and would like to chat about helping local nonprofits with code. e at emersonhall dot com

Re: How Hillsong Church conquered the music industry

#89
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew someone that would play Catholic organ music for fun. She'd stream herself at the church she played at after hours. She wasn't Catholic or even Christian but she was good at it and got a gig playing it. She would play classical and her own compositions as well. She would also pull her boobs out and smoke meth on stream too. I think she ended up getting doxxed and kicked out of her parents house.

Whoever she is, she has an honorary spot in my punk band. Anyone got a link, or am I about to go down a weird internet hole?

Punk with an organ? Link, please! I like the cultural crossovers that are made in all the sub-genres of rock (whether it's Christian rock, Mongolian throat singing metal, or Taiwanese post-punk). If it's got four chords, count me in.

Re: How Hillsong Church conquered the music industry

#90
post #45

I went to a few Hillsong events about 10 years ago, when the church was becoming very obvious cultural influence Australia-wide. There is a lot that's very entrepreneurial about this church. They also started Gloria Jean's, a big, international Starbucks competitor. Like the music stuff, this had to do with youth culture and creating social aspects to the movement. In Australia a lot of people called the denomination…

> just because they've been "making things happen". Actually, my biggest fear about Christianity in the USA today is that it's NOT "making things happen" Or, perhaps more accurately, the things that it's making happen are businesses. The mainline congregations and Catholics of the 19th and early-mid 20th centuries made serious contributions to: 1. Education. In addition to the obvious middle and high schools, they st…

As a Christian, I can honestly say your comment is the cold hard truth; unfortunate, but true. Many churches today have gone from preaching the unadulterated truth to being nothing more than motivational speakers and social clubs. There's also many who haven't compromised and continue down the straight and narrow, but the trend has certainly been in the opposite direction. Thank you for posting your insight - very helpful.
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