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Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

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Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#71

Post by dsr_ »

erikb wrote: post #58
pandapower2 wrote: post #12

I don't know what I thought would happen exactly but when he said he was taking time away I certainly imagined it would be a lot longer than a month.

It was a political move from day one. As you might notice Kernel is not the only environment that adds and modifies their CoC currently. There is a group with political goals driving that effort. He wanted to see where the wind is blowing before making a move himself, as well as be flexible enough to also move into the corresponding direction. That said, I also wonder if he moves too quickly, or if he found an agreem…

Can you identify this "group with political goals driving that effort" or is it speculation bordering on conspiracy theory?

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#72

Post by aninhumer »

jf- wrote: post #68
aninhumer wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The simple fact is that people who have power tend to abuse that power, but that has nothing to do with meritocracy as a concept. Except that by definition, meritocracy creates a power dynamic which can be abused in this way. Those with "merit" are trusted and respected more than those without. This means that complaints about their behaviour are more often ignored or dismissed. And even when bad behaviour is too bl…

Life creates a power dynamic which can be abused in this way. This is getting ridiculous. Have some minimal set of rules so that people, including important people, can’t be outright nasty to each other and leave it at that. There is absolutely no need for all this ideological baggage.

>Life creates a power dynamic which can be abused in this way.

And such dynamics should be acknowledged and opposed wherever they exist.

>Have some minimal set of rules

Except as I said, these rules are frequently ignored or applied less fairly in one way or another for those with "merit".

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#73

Post by mcbits »

roenxi wrote: post #60
m_mueller wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so I can't really find fault with the CoC itself, but the motivation as described in your link is indeed questionable, though I'd say worthy of discussion: > Studies have shown that organizational cultures that value meritocracy often result in greater inequality. People with “merit” are often excused for their bad behavior in public spaces based on the value of their technical contributions. Meritocracy also nai…

I had a long and fun argument with someone the last time the kernel came up on this exact subject. A very interesting observation is that in the extreme "meritocracy" 100% implies that people with merit should be excused for their bad behavior in public spaces based on the value of their technical contributions. Any political system comes with trade-offs. Meritocracies fundamentally excuse bad behavior, democracies f…

> Meritocracies fundamentally excuse bad behavior

This may often (?) be true in practice if you remove "fundamentally", but not always and it doesn't have to be. In an environment where people work together to produce an outcome, the ability to interact positively and productively with others is a valuable behavioral merit. It keeps one talented asshole from chasing away all the other talent. You can have a meritocratic organization where "works well with the team" is a requirement. Where this breaks down is when talented people sit back and allow abuse (or worse, start to emulate it) because they're all starry-eyed about an offender's other talents and achievements.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#74

Post by [deleted] »

aninhumer wrote: post #72
jf- wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life creates a power dynamic which can be abused in this way. This is getting ridiculous. Have some minimal set of rules so that people, including important people, can’t be outright nasty to each other and leave it at that. There is absolutely no need for all this ideological baggage.

>Life creates a power dynamic which can be abused in this way. And such dynamics should be acknowledged and opposed wherever they exist. >Have some minimal set of rules Except as I said, these rules are frequently ignored or applied less fairly in one way or another for those with "merit".

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#75

Post by aninhumer »

chroma wrote: post #49
ghusbands wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the point is that the unprivileged don't get the same opportunities in many ways, so they don't do so well in tests but they still do well at the job; therefore, you need to give them extra leeway during recruiting and such. Also, the experience of the less privileged is that some people use claimed-impartial tests and barriers to exclude them in particular, and so when a test comes along it is demotivating,…

> Look at the examples of CVs/books sent around with just the name/gender changed and the huge difference in response rate to see the bias. That's not true. The original studies used low class names for blacks and hispanics, but not for whites. (For example, they didn't use names like Cletus or Billy Ray.) Once this was corrected for, they found almost no bias in resume screening.[1] 1. https://economics.missouri.edu…

So looking at their methodology, they chose the "high class" black names ("Anderson" and "Thompson") (EDIT: I misread, these aren't the black names) based on census proportions, but that doesn't necessarily mean those names are actually read as "black" by most people.

Moreover, using census results ignores exposure to foreigners with these names. My own strongest association for "Thompson" is the white police officers in Tintin, and more generally for white English people. (Although I'm British so that may not be representative.)

As long as "low class" black names are more readily associated with blackness than "high class" ones, this methodology isn't really isolating anything, just doing a slightly more intersectional analysis.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#76

Post by naasking »

aninhumer wrote: post #70
m_mueller wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so I can't really find fault with the CoC itself, but the motivation as described in your link is indeed questionable, though I'd say worthy of discussion: > Studies have shown that organizational cultures that value meritocracy often result in greater inequality. People with “merit” are often excused for their bad behavior in public spaces based on the value of their technical contributions. Meritocracy also nai…

>I just always have trouble imagining the end game of that kind of thinking - even in Stalinism, people with higher abilities were selected for various more demanding tasks. Rejecting meritocracy doesn't mean not acknowledging ability, it means not structuring power hierarchies around it. Those most able should be chosen for tasks because those involved in the work agree collectively, without the coercion of power dy…

Meritocracy doesn't require structuring power hierarchies around merit.

Furthermore, there will never be collective or universal agreement in any remotely complex issue, which means some block of the community is inevitably being coerced into accepting a communal choice.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#77

Post by sheepmullet »

Marazan wrote: post #44
m_mueller wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so I can't really find fault with the CoC itself, but the motivation as described in your link is indeed questionable, though I'd say worthy of discussion: > Studies have shown that organizational cultures that value meritocracy often result in greater inequality. People with “merit” are often excused for their bad behavior in public spaces based on the value of their technical contributions. Meritocracy also nai…

No, it's about how many so called meritocracies are not actually meritocracies and instead are nepotistic circle jerks of self reinforcing bad behaviour. That people think it is about enforcing equal outcome shows how threatened they are by the idea that maybe they didn't get where they are by being brilliant but by being a mediocre straight white male promoted and supported by other mediocre straight white males.

> but by being a mediocre straight white male promoted and supported by other mediocre straight white males.

That sounds kind of nice actually.

If that was actually the case why would the mediocre straight white male feel threatened?

Honestly that would be a pretty powerful safety net.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#78

Post by lordlimecat »

m_mueller wrote: post #25
funkythings wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> who believes meritocracy is racist and sexist Is it bad that nowadays I've trouble identifying whether this kind of categorization is redpillers bile or an accurate representation of an increasingly dominant extreme left? Would you have a quote from that lady, and if correct, how did she get in the position of writing Linux COC?

Take a look at her comments on github and judge for yourself.

https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941

She wants to tar and feather an OSS contributor for views expressed on a personal twitter account. Further down searches through his ~400 git repositories, finds two with potentially offensive names (which have rational explanations, including being non-native english speaker), and uses that as basis to continue witch hunt.

Eric Raymond did a good write up on what's happening here that I certainly found insightful. He gives a description that perfectly describes what you see in that github issue:

"What’s there is totalitarianism in miniature: ideology is everything, merit counts for nothing against the suppression of thoughtcrime, and politics is conducted by naked intimidation against any who refuse to conform."

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#79

Post by C1sc0cat »

funkythings wrote: post #21
AnnoyingSwede wrote: post #20

Funny that their code of conduct contains all the standard equal rights no matter what XYZ, while this was never Linus problem. He never lashed out on people because of gender, race or sexual preference. It should simply have said "Don't be an elitistic assh*le aginst people just doing their best."

[flagged]

She is not wrong the author that coined the phrase in the 50's said basically the same - he did not in any way "meritocracy " was a good thing.
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