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Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

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Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#51

Post by neddeadstark »

ry_ry wrote: post #7
carlmr wrote: post #3

I really wonder what's going to happen to Linux once Linus is gone. I think we've seen now that just a week after he took a break the community started falling apart rapidly.

Kernel fragments into a dizzying array of forks, TrueLinux, RealKernel, Linux Core, LinuxPlus and DogeKernel fight for supremacy on obscure making lists and github issue trackers. The public remains largely unaware. Huge PR battles over which logo to use erupt, somebody sneaks backdoors into the majority of the kernels. Somebody else backdoors the backdoors. Pretty soon over half the code base consists of backdoors a…

This is perfect.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#52

Post by angus-prune »

chroma wrote: post #49
ghusbands wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the point is that the unprivileged don't get the same opportunities in many ways, so they don't do so well in tests but they still do well at the job; therefore, you need to give them extra leeway during recruiting and such. Also, the experience of the less privileged is that some people use claimed-impartial tests and barriers to exclude them in particular, and so when a test comes along it is demotivating,…

> Look at the examples of CVs/books sent around with just the name/gender changed and the huge difference in response rate to see the bias. That's not true. The original studies used low class names for blacks and hispanics, but not for whites. (For example, they didn't use names like Cletus or Billy Ray.) Once this was corrected for, they found almost no bias in resume screening.[1] 1. https://economics.missouri.edu…

I don't think that shows a lack of racism, rather the existance of classism.

People are being unfairly judged based on racial and class identifiers, rather than on their CV.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#53

Post by stareatgoats »

alerighi wrote: post #38
funkythings wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

She is not communist, communism is all about meritocracy, I don't read anywhere in the books of Marx all this gender and equality bullshit. Communism says that no matter who you are you are evaluated for the work you do, having policies that explicitally favorites womans is not communism, is discrimination against mens

I'm assuming by 'communism' you mean Marxist philosophy. The most accurate description would however probably be that morals like this don't exist in a metaphysical sense, but are tied to each stage in social development (hunter/gatherers, slavery, feudalism, capitalism, socialism and communism) [0].

Under socialism (the next stage from ours) workers would be rewarded according to contribution (meritocracy) whereas the final stage (communism) would reward humans according to need instead. It's a philosophy colored by the positivism and development optimism of the 19th century, which tried to superimpose a deterministic (scientific) model on history unfolding, with contemporary Europe at its development pinnacle.

Whether it is a correct theory remains to be seen (in a few thousand years, but I wouldn't hold my breath), but the case could be made that we are already gradually leaving the capitalist stage, and that we are even moving into communist territory (rewarding according to need - affirmative action etc), i.e. with the stages simultaneously coexisting with one another, without the violent revolutionary disruptions that traditional Marxists anticipated.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_history#Sta...

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#54

Post by thefz »

rs23296008n1 wrote: post #32
funkythings wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Having read her twitter posts she's no lady. Some of the most toxic vitriol available. She would easily fail her own code of conduct rules.

The problem with his/her/whatever CoC is this:

> regardless of age, body size, disability, ethnicity, sex characteristics, gender identity and expression, level of experience, education, socio-economic status, nationality, personal appearance, race, religion, or sexual identity and orientation

Basically "your code won't be merged because you are not skilled enough" falls under 'level of experience, education, socio-economic status'. Expect HUGE shitshows on Git from social justice warriors for the most futile of reasons. They just want to DDOS existing projects with superficial lamentations. See Python's master/slave controversy.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#55

Post by XorNot »

chroma wrote: post #49
ghusbands wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the point is that the unprivileged don't get the same opportunities in many ways, so they don't do so well in tests but they still do well at the job; therefore, you need to give them extra leeway during recruiting and such. Also, the experience of the less privileged is that some people use claimed-impartial tests and barriers to exclude them in particular, and so when a test comes along it is demotivating,…

> Look at the examples of CVs/books sent around with just the name/gender changed and the huge difference in response rate to see the bias. That's not true. The original studies used low class names for blacks and hispanics, but not for whites. (For example, they didn't use names like Cletus or Billy Ray.) Once this was corrected for, they found almost no bias in resume screening.[1] 1. https://economics.missouri.edu…

This doesn't disprove the original contention.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#56

Post by BurnGpuBurn »

chroma wrote: post #33
m_mueller wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who believes meritocracy is racist and sexist Is it bad that nowadays I've trouble identifying whether this kind of categorization is redpillers bile or an accurate representation of an increasingly dominant extreme left? Would you have a quote from that lady, and if correct, how did she get in the position of writing Linux COC?

Here’s one: https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/874642259672801280 > “Meritocracy” is just thinly veiled misogyny and white supremacy propping up fragile cis het white men’s egos. Or https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/1029952846492565504 > “Reverse racism” is such a weird phrase for “justice”. Or https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/823064825366360065 > Why didn’t anyone punch the reporter giving the nazi ai…

It's amazing to see how many nice open source projects have been pressured into adopting this.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#57

Post by chroma »

angus-prune wrote: post #52
chroma wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look at the examples of CVs/books sent around with just the name/gender changed and the huge difference in response rate to see the bias. That's not true. The original studies used low class names for blacks and hispanics, but not for whites. (For example, they didn't use names like Cletus or Billy Ray.) Once this was corrected for, they found almost no bias in resume screening.[1] 1. https://economics.missouri.edu…

I don't think that shows a lack of racism, rather the existance of classism. People are being unfairly judged based on racial and class identifiers, rather than on their CV.

The study I linked to shows that there's almost no race or sex discrimination for names on resumes, even in the southeast US. Regarding class discrimination: I don't think you'll get much disagreement from reasonable people. It's ubiquitous. That said, I do think classism is far less common in tech than in most fields.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#58

Post by erikb »

pandapower2 wrote: post #12

I don't know what I thought would happen exactly but when he said he was taking time away I certainly imagined it would be a lot longer than a month.

It was a political move from day one. As you might notice Kernel is not the only environment that adds and modifies their CoC currently. There is a group with political goals driving that effort. He wanted to see where the wind is blowing before making a move himself, as well as be flexible enough to also move into the corresponding direction.

That said, I also wonder if he moves too quickly, or if he found an agreement with other FOSS leaders.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#59

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

Marazan wrote: post #44
m_mueller wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so I can't really find fault with the CoC itself, but the motivation as described in your link is indeed questionable, though I'd say worthy of discussion: > Studies have shown that organizational cultures that value meritocracy often result in greater inequality. People with “merit” are often excused for their bad behavior in public spaces based on the value of their technical contributions. Meritocracy also nai…

No, it's about how many so called meritocracies are not actually meritocracies and instead are nepotistic circle jerks of self reinforcing bad behaviour. That people think it is about enforcing equal outcome shows how threatened they are by the idea that maybe they didn't get where they are by being brilliant but by being a mediocre straight white male promoted and supported by other mediocre straight white males.

Do you think it's actually possible to convey this same meaning without denigrating somebody?

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#60

Post by roenxi »

m_mueller wrote: post #39
chroma wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s one: https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/874642259672801280 > “Meritocracy” is just thinly veiled misogyny and white supremacy propping up fragile cis het white men’s egos. Or https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/1029952846492565504 > “Reverse racism” is such a weird phrase for “justice”. Or https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/823064825366360065 > Why didn’t anyone punch the reporter giving the nazi ai…

OK, so I can't really find fault with the CoC itself, but the motivation as described in your link is indeed questionable, though I'd say worthy of discussion: > Studies have shown that organizational cultures that value meritocracy often result in greater inequality. People with “merit” are often excused for their bad behavior in public spaces based on the value of their technical contributions. Meritocracy also nai…

I had a long and fun argument with someone the last time the kernel came up on this exact subject. A very interesting observation is that in the extreme "meritocracy" 100% implies that people with merit should be excused for their bad behavior in public spaces based on the value of their technical contributions.

Any political system comes with trade-offs. Meritocracies fundamentally excuse bad behavior, democracies fundamentally allow mob rule/bad decisions in haste, monarchies fundamentally ignore commoner's problems, bureaucracies are too risk averse and slow, etc, etc. If we rejected political systems that allow failings and excuses, we'd only have anarchy.

To the topic at hand, the kernel folk don't seem to be particularly political, and obviously they don't want anyone behaving badly in their community, but one does suspect that there is a game of political football afoot that is not going to benefit the kernel. The kernel is a technical project - people who reject the idea of technical merit have a home in society, but that home isn't in the Linux Kernel community; it is a space where merit is meaningful. The kernel maintainers should first and foremost concerned about the technical quality of the kernel.

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