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42 (school)

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Re: 42 (school)

#61

Post by williamdclt »

arcatek wrote: post #54
titanix2 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot to mention the private schools are expensive and use a somewhat pyramidal scheme where older students teach newer ones to repaid part of their school fees. In public education all teachers hold PhD or engineer titles so they have more years to think about what they teach than the guy who is only year+2 of the teachee. Edit: I checked Epitech tuition fees, it's around 40k€ for the whole 5 years curriculum.…

Something interesting is that the way Epitech (and 42) work is completely different from what you would have in public schools (at least in France). For example, one key part for me was that the school allowed me to practically don't go to classes as long as I could prove that my work wasn't affected. It's something that you won't find everyday. I'm 100% sure I'd have failed university otherwise because the lack of f…

I don't understand, you say they allow to learn at your own pace but don't offer enough support for those who need it, that certainly sounds like trying to fit all with one size?

I've done Ensimag, which is a public school in the same sector, and you definitely could skip classes if you wanted to (though most of the ones who skipped classes did it out of sloppiness)

Re: 42 (school)

#62

Post by agumonkey »

valw wrote: post #32

Having interviewed a bunch of 42 graduates, my main issue with 42 is that it doesn't teach their students to think about what they're doing, encouraging them instead to rush to the keyboard and emit as much code as they can as if programming for the last day of their project. This seems to resonate well with the culture of piscines at 42. To me, this is as silly as training Biathlon athletes to not even aim before th…

Have always been curious if 42 would inherit the "piscines" culture..

That said the opening year they let people try student challenges and they were brilliant. Tiny and principled, out of the box thinking, mostly relying on creative and critical thinking.

Anyway, there's a need for patience driven cursus :)

Re: 42 (school)

#63

Post by icebraining »

thomasbachem wrote: post #56

Somewhat related to this, we founded https://code.berlin , an accredited university in Berlin with strictly project-based, interdisciplinary and self-directed 3-year Bachelor programs in Software Engineering, Interaction Design and Product Management. We're in our 2nd year now, with 230 students from more than 40 nations. We've partnered with 42 US for student exchange last summer, and it was an awesome experience fo…

You should post it to HN! I see it has been posted once before, but that was over a year ago, it's perfectly fine to post again.

Re: 42 (school)

#64

Post by thomasbachem »

zapita wrote: post #57

I am very happy about this trend of project-oriented, deferred-tuition programming trade schools. So far I know of: - 42 (France and Bay Area) - Lambda School (online) - Holberton (Bay Area) - There is also Epitech (France) which is the "ancestor" of both Holberton and 42. They don't defer tuition, but have the same project-oriented, TA-intensive curriculum. It's still early and all these schools have their strengths…

Absolutely!

There's also

- Make School (Bay Area)

- CODE (Berlin) [I'm one of the founders]

Re: 42 (school)

#65

Post by ttoinou »

arkh wrote: post #58
valw wrote: post #32

Having interviewed a bunch of 42 graduates, my main issue with 42 is that it doesn't teach their students to think about what they're doing, encouraging them instead to rush to the keyboard and emit as much code as they can as if programming for the last day of their project. This seems to resonate well with the culture of piscines at 42. To me, this is as silly as training Biathlon athletes to not even aim before th…

> To me, this is as silly as training Biathlon athletes to not even aim before they shoot. People should learn this mantra: coding is to software development what moving pieces is to chess.

Moving pieces is much simpler though... A lot of graduates of computer science didn't do much coding and are bad software engineers in my view.

Re: 42 (school)

#66

Post by mygo »

solarkraft wrote: post #37
mygo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why not pet a cat? what did the cat do to them? is 42 anti cat? just kidding. see how easily conspiracy theories form?

damn cat haters.

I once wrote a purely academic article about election map data visualization and after it got picked up by Fast Company it was amazing how some people in the comments were convinced that it was written to further some sort of political agenda. Just sitting there reading that made me go wow, I wonder what I’ve been lead to believe from the outside looking in that is just flat out unfounded

Re: 42 (school)

#67

Post by thomasbachem »

icebraining wrote: post #63
thomasbachem wrote: post #56

Somewhat related to this, we founded https://code.berlin , an accredited university in Berlin with strictly project-based, interdisciplinary and self-directed 3-year Bachelor programs in Software Engineering, Interaction Design and Product Management. We're in our 2nd year now, with 230 students from more than 40 nations. We've partnered with 42 US for student exchange last summer, and it was an awesome experience fo…

You should post it to HN! I see it has been posted once before, but that was over a year ago, it's perfectly fine to post again.

Thanks, will do :) I'll just wait until November when we reopen applications for next year.

Re: 42 (school)

#68

Post by ttoinou »

titanix2 wrote: post #26
EZ-E wrote: post #10

This kind of discussion will end up being the typical (French) disdain between people learning engineering in the public schools v/s the ones learning in these "practical teaching" private schools and vice versa. There are good engineers in both, both have different approach to teach which fit different people. Both do generally good in the private sector after they're done with it. As usual the people graduating fro…

You forgot to mention the private schools are expensive and use a somewhat pyramidal scheme where older students teach newer ones to repaid part of their school fees. In public education all teachers hold PhD or engineer titles so they have more years to think about what they teach than the guy who is only year+2 of the teachee. Edit: I checked Epitech tuition fees, it's around 40k€ for the whole 5 years curriculum.…

  You can make a century of studies for the same price in any public university
Sure, if you manage to not pay taxes

Re: 42 (school)

#69

Post by arcatek »

williamdclt wrote: post #61
arcatek wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something interesting is that the way Epitech (and 42) work is completely different from what you would have in public schools (at least in France). For example, one key part for me was that the school allowed me to practically don't go to classes as long as I could prove that my work wasn't affected. It's something that you won't find everyday. I'm 100% sure I'd have failed university otherwise because the lack of f…

I don't understand, you say they allow to learn at your own pace but don't offer enough support for those who need it, that certainly sounds like trying to fit all with one size? I've done Ensimag, which is a public school in the same sector, and you definitely could skip classes if you wanted to (though most of the ones who skipped classes did it out of sloppiness)

I meant "at your own pace" as in "they let you decide how you want to learn it". Meaning that instead of following classes (which were quite basic anyway) I spent most of my time reading man pages and reading obscure forums, and they were perfectly fine with that.

Those who had issues were those who needed to be told where and what exactly to look for. They often felt like they were paying for little to no teaching (which is true, in a sense, but I preferred to see it as an opportunity to grow by myself in an environment where I could have extra resources at my disposal if I needed to - the best one often being other students, sometimes from previous years).

Re: 42 (school)

#70

Post by namdnay »

liotier wrote: post #52
valw wrote: post #32

Having interviewed a bunch of 42 graduates, my main issue with 42 is that it doesn't teach their students to think about what they're doing, encouraging them instead to rush to the keyboard and emit as much code as they can as if programming for the last day of their project. This seems to resonate well with the culture of piscines at 42. To me, this is as silly as training Biathlon athletes to not even aim before th…

Development requires analysis and programming. Some people are both analysts and programmers - they are the elite, not the norm. I can manage large business requirements, I write functional specifications and negotiate them with users, I plan technical architecture... And then I'm happy enough with programmers who need hand-holding at every step - anyway my telco employer has long stopped having budget enough to pay…

Though it is quite common, I think this is a very bad way to organise a business. It's as if programming were bricklaying, a simple operation to be performed under instructions from an architect.

That's just not true, the main reason being that if you're not programming any more, how can you define a modern technical architecture? If you don't know the precise technical limitations, how can you negotiate functional specifications?

Engineering is Engineering, whether it's IT systems or bridges

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