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Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

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361–370 of 412 posts

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#361
post #168
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really need a CoC to know someone who says "This code is fucking garbage and you should be ashamed" is an idiot? Do you really need a CoC to kick out someone who says that?

Just the opposite: you need the CoC to make sure they do get kicked out. Because for example if the writer of that comment is friends with the moderators of the forum, they might get a slap on the wrist and allowed to continue. Having a written CoC lets people know that the mods can be held accountable to the document. Another example making the same point, this time of actual harassment being ignored: https://www.yo…

>Just the opposite: you need the CoC to make sure they do get kicked out.

No, you don't. You don't need a CoC for sensible moderation.

Good moderation is a combination of clear, actionable rules, good intentions and wisdom. Documents like Contributor's Covenant do not help with any of that. They're vague, their intentions are debatable, above all they're the exact opposite of "wise".

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#362
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of this stuff is in service of getting the job done. If people can't usefully collaborate with other people because they literally never developed adult social skills (not uncommon in the tech world), then they're not going to be good contributors or collaborators. They won't know how to constructively criticize others, or take constructive criticism, they won't learn from their mistakes, and they might not even…

What are the priorities? Is 'collaborating' supreme goal on its own? a) Quality b) Feelings c) Having as many as possible people 'collaborating' d) Getting job done Pick two. They are not excluding others but I wonder what the priorities are. I pick A and D, C is welcome but not priority, B only if it doesn't clash with any of other goals.

I agree with that list of priorities, but I don't know what you mean by "feelings"- I wouldn't use that word in my own division of goals. I would just call it "effective communication", not "feelings". You're phrasing it as if the the scenario people are trying to avoid is some brutally honest truthteller vs. some hypersensitive weenie who can't handle the truth, and that people are claiming that it's more important, in that situation, to preserve the weenie's feelings than it is for truth to be expressed. That's not the intention of CoC's or workplace etiquette or professionalism.

Think of that truthteller vs. weenie scenario: in cases where one person is potentially hurting someone else's feefees over professional criticism, there is for sure some subset of those cases where that's exactly what's happening. One person is 100% correct, and is being brutally honest with someone else who is both incompetent and hypersensitive, and deserves that brutally honest criticism because that's the only way to get through to them.

That's a subset of those situations. I don't know how much of a subset- 25%? 50%? My gut says more like 1-5%, but my gut is naturally biased (like everyone's). But in 100% of those situations, I guarantee that the brutally honest truthteller THINKS that's what the situation is. In my experience, the brutally honest truthteller is expressing their own confidence in themselves far more often than they're expressing an objective measure of cold hard truth. Some subset of them are expressing cold hard truth that can't be ignored, but all of them think they are. If they had really truly done their homework and knew what they were talking about, they would have eventually learned humility and skepticism, and would be much less likely to jump into the brutally honest truthteller role in the first place.

Simple example of productive etiquette: when criticizing someone's work, it's generally much more effective to phrase it in such a way that it doesn't come off like a personal attack. Meaning, some variant of "this code is bad" works better than some variant of "your code is bad". In the latter case, natural and common cognitive biases (i.e., human nature) are such that people will almost always feel at least a little bit defensive, and are more likely to reject the rational aspects of the criticism because they sense that the other person is criticizing their work for personal rather than rational reasons. I'm totally aware of these biases in myself and I'm still almost as susceptible to them as anyone. It makes it easy to brush off the criticism as coming from an irrational place, on a subconscious level that never even rises into the conscious mind. Making it personal diminishes the credibility of the criticizer in the eyes of the criticized.

So, as a rule, I have found that it's much more effective to make an effort to phrase things as objective criticisms rather than personal attacks. This isn't tiptoeing around someone's feefees, it's literally just making an effort to communicate in a way that is most likely to produce a positive outcome (in terms of production, not feefees- the preserved feefees are just a pleasant side effect). In my experience, that's all that most CoC's or calls for workplace civility or whatever are advocating. Some people are used to working in large organizations full of big egos and unbalanced people from all over the world. Other people have spent their professional lives in much smaller bubbles, and never had cause to think about any of this stuff. But successful open source projects resemble the former much more than the latter, and can require similar social awareness to keep things running smoothly. Things like CoC's, ideally, just make sure that everyone's on the same page in as harmless and nonintrusive way as possible. I'm sure they've been misused or poorly implemented in specific situations, but in principle it all seems eminently reasonable to me.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#363

When people are arguing for "diversity" what they are meaning, generally, is "there is already an enormous thumb on the scales, this can be shown empirically by outcomes". So to the extent Stallman's intent is to take the thumb off the scales and make everyone welcome, it is very reasonable. That said, I think he's wrong to devalue quota type approaches, because in some circumstances, particularly institutional ones…

>those are a very effective way to force a noncompliant culture to take its thumb off the scales. I think some would argue that quota approaches aren't quite this, but rather that they're a thumb on the other end of the scale. The first thumb is still there because non-compliant cultures that aren't fundamentally converted to becoming compliant at the cultural level will generally continue to be non-compliant culture…

Well said! Moreover, the popular “thumb on the opposite side of the scale” approach risks accidentally encouraging a “thumb war” of sorts: I think people’s attention is naturally drawn to the thumb on the opposite end of the scale, and thinking this to be unfair, will respond in kind with more thumb pressure on their end. This could escalate more and more, until you eventually end up with extreme unfairness vs extreme fairness.

The “thumb on scale” approach does work in some cases, I think, but it’s important that there be a “de-escalation” (or “de-thumbing”?) endgame strategy. What you don’t want is a situation where there are thumbs on each side of the scale, and each side is telling the other to remove pressure but neither side wants to because it’ll benefit the other.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#364
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of this stuff is in service of getting the job done. If people can't usefully collaborate with other people because they literally never developed adult social skills (not uncommon in the tech world), then they're not going to be good contributors or collaborators. They won't know how to constructively criticize others, or take constructive criticism, they won't learn from their mistakes, and they might not even…

One "adult social skill" that comes to mind is the ability to deal with people who haven't developed adult social skills. The vast majority of people in my own professional environment seem to do this even instinctively.

I totally agree. But at the same time, immaturity doesn't let anyone off the hook for being shitty to other people. It's not just on the Internet- it doesn't let them off the hook in real life either. The post I responded to was from someone who said they were so pissed off that people were telling them not to be shitty to other people, that they left the job a couple weeks later.

The Internet's a different beast- it's often an ignorance-not-malice situation when ugly things happen in places like open source project mailing lists. Electronic communication is notorious for not conveying nuance or irony or sarcasm. A CoC (in principle) seems like nothing more than an explicit statement intended to curtail ignorance that could be misinterpreted as malice, which in turn could derail a project.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#365
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony of unkind communication in a thread discussing new guidelines around kind communication is just painful. If I were the type of the anti-"diversity" person, my retort to this would be that you are obviously attempting to censor my free speech, by making certain types of speech out of bounds, and then assert that free speech is a good in itself -- one of the highest, if not the single highest such good -- and…

> my retort to this would be that you are obviously attempting to censor my free speech Do you not realise that free speech doesn't apply to whatever random online forum you decided to sign up too?

I realize it perfectly well, but you chose to quote only half of what I said and then try to push an interpretation based on that. By the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines, this is an unkind thing to do!

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Observing a bias, quantifying it as best as possible, and deploying countermeasures in corresponding degree to reduce its impact, is not racism. But if you believe anything which assigns admission/hiring/recruiting scores on any basis other than objectively-measured individual merit is "racist", you cannot plausibly be in favor of current hiring, recruiting or admissions practices, and have far larger fish to fry tha…

An extravertedness bias in underclass culture is the main reason people why people don't get into coding, which is historically more something for introverts and a "nerd thing". It's still in peoples minds, nobody in High School wants to be like Steve Urkel, it's a vulnerabilty in certain circles. This can only be changed by changing the image of coders within mainstream pop culture, which in turn is mainly influence…

And round and round and round we go! Everybody has a convenient finger to point at someone else who's responsible, and if all else fails blame the people discriminated against and say it's their fault for not doing more to overcome the discrimination.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, let's argue the way the "anti-diversity" people normally do in these threads. You assert that advocates of diversity want people: going out of our way to collect diversity tokens You must now present, to me, and separately and individually to any other person who asks it of you, a minimum of five credible primary sources of people who advocate diversity and who have used exactly this phrasing -- no paraphrasing,…

You must now present, to me, First off, thanks for that. To think that any random stranger on the internet "must" do something for you... well, that's quality humor right there. and separately and individually to any other person who asks it of you, a minimum of five credible primary sources of people who advocate diversity and who have used exactly this phrasing My guess is that he's capable of original thought, and…

It's depressingly common in threads about diversity issues that people assert a right to force their interlocutors to re-litigate the entire history of discrimination from first principles, impeccably sourced, on demand.

Ironically, the same sorts of people also throw out unsourced assertion after unsourced assertion (see the person who replied to me stating that the BBC has jobs for black people only, and who I suspect honestly and truly believes that, despite the reply to them explaining that that would be very illegal).

If it's fair for them to do that, it should be fair for me to do it, too, and for me to explicitly state that.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, here's the thing. Statements like this? Rather, the problem is that if we make demographic D feel unwelcome, we lose out on possible contributors. And very likely also others that are not in demographic D. This is not a new statement. This is what people pushing diversity have been saying for years and years. The only ways for this to be a new and refreshing thing to you are: 1. You were not paying attention, or…

The fact that companies have programs targeting recruitment specifically to minorities says otherwise.

The point of recruiting from non-traditional sources (and remember, here, in tech "non-traditional" almost means "anywhere other than exclusively the campuses of Stanford and a couple other presumed-elite universities") is to cast a wider net and try to find people who are qualified but who've been excluded due to biases in the current/historic system.

This is a perfectly fair and valid thing to do, yet it's always portrayed by opponents as "tokenism", "gotta catch 'em all", etc., and then asserted to be "diversity for diversity's sake". As I originally said, such people either have not been paying attention, or have been misinformed (and are now actively spreading misinformation).

This is why I challenged someone's "collect diversity tokens" assertion by telling them to source the phrase in actual claims made by companies. I know they won't be able to, but I know they also deeply and likely unshakably believe -- because they're been bombarded with the message in HN threads, and on other social media -- that that's the real goal.

But for you, let's just flip the script: the unspoken principle behind your comment:

The fact that companies have programs targeting recruitment specifically to minorities says otherwise.

is that companies explicitly choose their recruiting pipelines and should be held responsible for the demographics which come out of those pipelines. I would agree with that principle, but I suspect you would find extreme distaste for it if it were actually to be neutrally applied. Current recruiting pipelines produce dismal demographics precisely because of who they target, and if companies were held responsible for that they'd have to make large-scale changes.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I think more often than not, people here need reminders like this. Nothing they said was wrong.

What reminder? The OP threw out an awful no true Scotsman argument. Pro diversity programs in all of the big tech companies that specifically target diversity quotas are a blatant example.

Pro diversity programs in all of the big tech companies that specifically target diversity quotas are a blatant example.

Quote primary sources from "all of the big tech companies" to back this assertion. Real sources, which really say it, too, not "well I interpret this as quotas" or anything of that sort.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affirmative action is about noticing that a system was biased against a particular group of people, and attempting to counteract the bias. For example: if Group X is historically discriminated against, and you can quantify the resulting bias (which may not be conscious) such that on a 100-point school admission scale it works out to on average a 5-point disadvantage, adding some points based on membership in that gro…

> And if you believe discrimination should be banished, when will you be showing up to protest schools which give preferential admission to "legacies" (descendants or other kin of alumni) I feel like this is a strawman - fossdev didn't say he agreed with such things.

fossdev didn't say he agreed with such things

And yet I find no evidence of concerted effort against those things, or even minimal effort to express disagreement with those things, on fossdev's part. Only their presence here.

It would have been easy to add a condemnation of those things in the original comment, too, in order to make sure nobody could read the lack of it as support or at least acceptance. But they didn't do that.

It's fair to see someone condemn what they believe to be one instance of a violation of a principle, and ask why they picked that one and not other, larger or more impactful, violations of the same principle.

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