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Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others

repl.it

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Re: Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others

#171

Post by Avshalom »

darkerside wrote: post #122
nonce725 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a beginner, I have no idea what docker is. This is one of the most frustrating parts of learning ANY language. The assumed knowledge and supposed "here's a quick start guide" actually starts on step 8. Don't assume the beginner knows what docker is. Don't assume the beginner knows what a shell is. I've tried to learn 3-4 languages or frameworks over the years, and I have only a vague idea of how to move between di…

Here's a counterpoint. It's ok that you don't know what docker is. It's ok that you don't know what a shell is. What exactly is the nature of the dismissive attitude from others that has held you back from learning? Perhaps these are real opinions, but consider the source. If they are smarter than they are rude, and their opinions hold value, maybe suck it up and learn something. If it's not worth it to you, ignore t…

Yeah it's fine not to know what docker is in like a moral sense. But when it comes to wanting to write anything beyond hello world you start running into package and environment and container managers that everyone is arguing with everyone about. I mean hell this thread is like three different recommendations for python that all end with "fuck it use JavaScript".

That shit is discouraging and the annoying thing--coming from some who first wrote a Tetris clone a decade ago--is that it's recent. A decade ago you just downloaded a library and put it in the folder you were writing in. Now while that still probably works library how-tos have all either gotten complicated or assume you've already complicated that shit.

Re: Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others

#172

Post by tekromancr »

Klathmon wrote: post #126
7ewis wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using Python as my go-to language for a while. It works well and I feel like I understand the basics, but pipenv, pyenv, pip etc. seem needlessly complex. Especially when I'm trying to create a serverless framework package, or upload a zip to AWS Lambda. Never know what tool to use to install packages, or how to specify the python version... or even change the python version on my Mac. Homebrew Python, syst…

This doesn't answer your questions, but I firmly believe this is the major reason node took off in popularity. Npm let you install packages minutes after being installed, and they went right into a folder right there, and they didn't conflict with any other packages on your system. I was like you and played with python for years but never anything larger than small scripts, and every time I went to do "real" python I…

On the other hand, as someone who knows a little js from the bad old days but has been doing python for over a decade, trying to get up and running with a modern js environment seems totally cray cray to me.

Usually, for me, I start by installing node. Ok, so I guess I need to install npm now. No problem, I guess that's like pip. Oh, I need yarn. It's better? Ok, I guess python had the same growing pains with easy_install. Oh, looks like when I installed npm I used sudo, so now I need to fix file permissions burried somewhere in my file system. Okay, I guess. At least when I get this running things will be a little better.

Oh, I need bundler? I guess that makes sense. Gotta configure a build system. Programing languages need build systems if you are creating distributable assets. Makes sense so far.

Oh, I guess I should have used webpack. Okay, lessons learned. I guess since I am using ES6 features I need something called babel too. Cute name for a transpiler, btw.

Oh no, I guess that 4 month old tutorial I followed that showed me how to set up babel with webpack used the old plug-in names. They are different now. Thats interesting. Gotta move fast, tho. I guess...

Huh, it still isn't working. The 6 different config files all look right. Oh, wow. Turns out that the behavior is different if I wrote the config files in json vs yaml vs pure js. Guess I gotta rewrite them in pure js to get at the real shit.

Okay, seems like I got all that mess sorted out. Let's add a few libraries to my packages manifest...

Huh, the docker containers are taking an awful long time to build suddenly, I wonder why that -- WHY THE FUCK IS node_modules 7.5GB and contains 82000 files, aghhhhgh?!?!

(I kid, I kid. But not really)

I guess a lot of that is just cultural differences between js and python communities, but as someone who considers themselves a reasonably competent programmer, trying to get onboard just seems like too much.

Contrast that with something like Rust, which I have also been trying to learn. Rust is positively delightful by comparison. I spent a cumulative total of 15 mins getting an environment set up. Which means I get more time to actually learn how to work with the language itself, instead of setting up tooling.

Maybe it will sort itself out a little as the node community matures and settles on what the right way to do things is, but for now, it's so much work to even get started.

Re: Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others

#173

Post by mcintyre1994 »

dserodio wrote: post #159
landon32 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use pipenv for this. I found it sometimes annoying but generally sufficient. Pyenv and pip both seemed too weak or complex. Pipenv was just simple. I would only write code within my pipenv environment, and then when I deployed the code pipenv would handle package management safely. Never did anything huge with it though. Just small web apps hosted on pythonanywhere.

Specifying dependencies when you're writing a library is still a mess, because pipenv isn't recommended for libraries. npm works the same way for both apps and libraries.

I saw poetry mentioned a few days ago. Haven't tried it yet but it tries to fix this: https://github.com/sdispater/poetry

Re: Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others

#174

Post by rorykoehler »

qaminsod wrote: post #152
sixhobbits wrote: post #77

Python, the "second best language for everything", has had a huge impact for teaching people programming. Beginners can do useful and interesting things and solve real problems after a few hours of learning. And yet the number of times I've seen beginners completely discouraged or even give up programming forever because they have conda and pip and brew and pyenv installed and can't run a basic script after 4 hours o…

I think there is a lot of value in going through the pains of setting up a development environment, writing build scripts, debugging environment issues, etc. > Beginners can do useful and interesting things and solve real problems after a few hours of learning. What real problems are beginners actually solving? I literally cannot think of a single one. Most introductory programming tutorials I've seen start off with…

>I think there is a lot of value in going through the pains of setting up a development environment, writing build scripts, debugging environment issues, etc.

There is but not as the first thing you do. Even I still get frustrated with setting up new dev envs for new (to me) languages. I'd much prefer to just try it out first and then figure out the plumbing later.

>What real problems are beginners actually solving? I literally cannot think of a single one.

That's a very elitist take. Firstly they are solving their own very real problem of not knowing how to code. Second they could have a very specific problem they want to solve that can only be solved by code.

>Most introductory programming tutorials I've seen start off with very straightforward instructions to setting up a basic environment - and this is actually useful in the long run.

It's true but what is also true is that there will almost always be version changes and OS specific changes that break the instructions in small but material ways. A beginner will not have the skills or knowledge on how to resolve that.

>That being said online repls are useful for writing quick code for e.g. testing something out.

Isn't that exactly the same problem they are solving for beginners?

Re: Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others

#176

Post by mintplant »

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #173
dserodio wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifying dependencies when you're writing a library is still a mess, because pipenv isn't recommended for libraries. npm works the same way for both apps and libraries.

I saw poetry mentioned a few days ago. Haven't tried it yet but it tries to fix this: https://github.com/sdispater/poetry

Yes, I've uses poetry and it's great. I think it and the pyproject.toml standard will become the solutions to all the problems stated above.

Re: Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others

#177

Post by btashton »

tekromancr wrote: post #172
Klathmon wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't answer your questions, but I firmly believe this is the major reason node took off in popularity. Npm let you install packages minutes after being installed, and they went right into a folder right there, and they didn't conflict with any other packages on your system. I was like you and played with python for years but never anything larger than small scripts, and every time I went to do "real" python I…

On the other hand, as someone who knows a little js from the bad old days but has been doing python for over a decade, trying to get up and running with a modern js environment seems totally cray cray to me. Usually, for me, I start by installing node. Ok, so I guess I need to install npm now. No problem, I guess that's like pip. Oh, I need yarn. It's better? Ok, I guess python had the same growing pains with easy_in…

This is exactly how I feel every time I try and use some project using React or other project using "modern" JavaScript/Typescript. I have seen the impressive things people have done with this to solve real problems, but really I have found it to be super unapproachable, and I say this as someone that has picked up a fair amount of low and high level langauges. I want to like it, but I get turned away before I have written any code.

Re: Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others

#178

Post by btashton »

nahtnam wrote: post #154
Klathmon wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't answer your questions, but I firmly believe this is the major reason node took off in popularity. Npm let you install packages minutes after being installed, and they went right into a folder right there, and they didn't conflict with any other packages on your system. I was like you and played with python for years but never anything larger than small scripts, and every time I went to do "real" python I…

I don't think many people here will agree with you but I do. I use Javascript for almost everything I do because "It just works." Assuming you are running Node 6.0+ and NPM 4+ you'll almost never run into an issue unless you are using something that needs some native packages installed.

But the native library issue is what makes it hard for Python as well. A large part of conda existing is to help data science people not have to worry about compiling native libraries for numpy or whatever ML library they happen to be using, since it bundles these libraries.

Re: Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others

#179

Post by mistersolomon »

amasad wrote: post #157
throwaway872 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but no one used them -- just like Repl.it, pretty much all of their monthly active users were only there for the free plan, and they left as soon as the companies tried to monetize. Koding, in particular, went through pretty much exactly the same cycle as Repl.it a few years ago. They started out getting tons of users by giving cloud servers away for free, targeted mainly at children/education market. Then they…

1. We've been arond longer than most in this space (since 2011) 2. We've been profitable and bootstrapping for a long time. We have paying users like Facebook, Google, and Stripe, Hackreactor, HCT (biggest college in the UAE) and so many more: https://repl.it/pricing 3. We're probably like 5-10x Koding users base. 4. You keep creating accounts to spread misinformation. Go find something better to do.

1. Koding was launched in January 2012.

2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18278979 seems to say you aren't profitable at the moment

3. In other words, you're giving away like 5-10x the amount of free servers Koding did. If burning money didn't work for them then how would burning it five times faster help you? Are you trying to make it up in volume or something?

4. Alright, just for you I'll stop using throwaway usernames. i don't post on HN super often and I usually forget my password, so I usually just make a new account whenever I want to post something. (fyi this is only my fourth post in this thread)

Look I like Repl.it and have used it in the past. You did a good job making the interface work well. I just don't see how free cloud computers can be sustainable as a business in the long term.

Re: Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others

#180

Post by TeMPOraL »

nahtnam wrote: post #154
Klathmon wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't answer your questions, but I firmly believe this is the major reason node took off in popularity. Npm let you install packages minutes after being installed, and they went right into a folder right there, and they didn't conflict with any other packages on your system. I was like you and played with python for years but never anything larger than small scripts, and every time I went to do "real" python I…

I don't think many people here will agree with you but I do. I use Javascript for almost everything I do because "It just works." Assuming you are running Node 6.0+ and NPM 4+ you'll almost never run into an issue unless you are using something that needs some native packages installed.

Or update packages?

NPM land is the only place I really have to be wary about package versions, because otherwise, even when following 6-months old tutorials you'll end up with nothing working due to breaking changes between library versions. And there are just so many dependencies to keep track of...

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