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Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

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Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that whole issue was, while it may be amusing to watch the drama unfold, that valuable contributors were being disaffected. No, its not about how entertaining the email chain reads. Its about getting work done? And it's disingenuous to describe the vicious attacks as 'snippy' and 'glib'.

Different people saw those emails in different ways. In fact, some people are invigorated by strong words as opposed to being cowed and driven away by them. I'm not saying that you didn't perceive them as vicious attacks, I'm saying that the spectrum of human behavior includes people who think being harsh is fine, and give and take it freely. You can't just throw out everyone that behaves in a way that makes you unco…

Yes, in a public environment, we do censure and object to 'strong words' (i.e. vicious vitriol). Public places demand a sense of decorum, lest the devolve into vicious places where only the mean survive.

Its not xenophobia; its civilization. You can talk as you please to your mates. But people you don't know? Its a whole different topic. And conflating the two is dishonest.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different people saw those emails in different ways. In fact, some people are invigorated by strong words as opposed to being cowed and driven away by them. I'm not saying that you didn't perceive them as vicious attacks, I'm saying that the spectrum of human behavior includes people who think being harsh is fine, and give and take it freely. You can't just throw out everyone that behaves in a way that makes you unco…

But the spectrum of harshness is like the spectrum of spicy food. While I may be content with spicier food than my mother is, if I forced her to eat some of the food I find palatable, she would cry. So if I want to have a pleasant, welcoming, and accessible meal, I should probably cook it to her spice level instead of mine.

You’re both right. In any other situation we’d say “ok, these are the limits between which 2 SD of the population falls, outliers will just have to deal with it”. And that would work. Here however we can’t measure anything, so we have no idea where to place the limits, or even what the distribution looks like.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#113

> Rather than trying to have the last word, look for the times when there is no need to reply, perhaps because you already made the relevant point clear enough. If you know something about the game of Go, this analogy might clarify that: when the opponent's move is not strong enough to require a direct response, it is advantageous to give it none and instead move elsewhere. I love this analogy of why not responding m…

Perhaps the most overlooked part of the document.

This is something I struggle with, a mentality of "everything must be logically evaluated and upvoted or downvoted". Sometimes, there doesn't need to be a response.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#114

A CoC in any other name is still a CoC. A very thin end of a wedge is stil the end of a wedge.

A wedge towards... what? Polite and professional behavior isn't a bad thing.

No, clearly not. Enforcement of behavior is a terrible thing. And of course it won't stop with a few, fairly reasonable suggestions. It never, ever does.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much damage have Linus's snippy emails really caused, in light of how they have benefited us? I and many other people like reading them because they are fun, so you have to take that in to account. Different people like different things, and that principle extends to writing styles and personalities. Indeed, if you really want to have diversity you should have some emails that I like to read in addition to having…

>How much damage have Linus's snippy emails really caused Don't downplay how he acted by using words like "snippy." There are contributors who have either left the project or actively avoid directly talking with him. There is a reason why Linus admitted he had a problem. It wasn't productive or useful. https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly/post... >But more importantly, I'd actually put some blame o…

Systemd, invented by the guy you are quoting, is, however, objectively crap.

I am about to start a separate, new service and have wide leeway in how it will run. I am moving away from Linux towards a mix of BSD and Solaris/Illumos. And Systemd played a part in this technical decision.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that whole issue was, while it may be amusing to watch the drama unfold, that valuable contributors were being disaffected. No, its not about how entertaining the email chain reads. Its about getting work done? And it's disingenuous to describe the vicious attacks as 'snippy' and 'glib'.

Different people saw those emails in different ways. In fact, some people are invigorated by strong words as opposed to being cowed and driven away by them. I'm not saying that you didn't perceive them as vicious attacks, I'm saying that the spectrum of human behavior includes people who think being harsh is fine, and give and take it freely. You can't just throw out everyone that behaves in a way that makes you unco…

"In fact, some people are invigorated by strong words as opposed to being cowed and driven away by them."

Maybe. But I'm going to guess that those that are "invigorated" by seeing someone be told that they should be "retroactively aborted" are not demotivated by not seeing that, and that more people are demotivated by seeing that.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#117

So, I read through the list of guidelines, and while I have some minor quibbles with them, overall they seem fine and reasonable. But what happens if someone refuses to be kind? What happens if that person is a major contributor? What would happen if, in some strange alternate reality, Linux was a GNU project, and Linus-of-2012 said he'd really rather not care about all this politeness nonsense, and would prefer to c…

> "the appointed maintainer(s) of a GNU package can, if necessary, tell a contributor to go away; but we do not want to need to have recourse to that."

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#118

So, I read through the list of guidelines, and while I have some minor quibbles with them, overall they seem fine and reasonable. But what happens if someone refuses to be kind? What happens if that person is a major contributor? What would happen if, in some strange alternate reality, Linux was a GNU project, and Linus-of-2012 said he'd really rather not care about all this politeness nonsense, and would prefer to c…

>But what happens if someone refuses to be kind? Then you work as a group of not-socially-incompetent people to find a compromise solution that hits the local maxima of what can be done with the situation, or make a considered decision to move down from the local maxima in the short term to find a higher maxima in the long term. Maybe discuss with that person the possibility of continuing their work but having a smal…

>Maybe discuss with that person the possibility of continuing their work but having a small group of other people between them and the general public as an interface layer that handles the less important work.

So you mean you want to unseat me from leading the project I'm in charge of? What kind of punishment is this for violating some silly guidelines? [1]

>If you think that setting up such a compromise might either be too expensive, might risk burning out the interface people or has some other downside, maybe have a frank discussion with them about the benefits and costs of their contributions to the process.

Wait, but I thought that this was a guideline. Are you saying that there's actually an implicit threat within this guideline that I might be removed from the project against my will? Why wasn't that stated explicitly? How am I, a valued contributor, able to make informed decisions if rules are arbitrary and decided on behind closed doors without any ability for public input, comment, or even knowledge?

In case my point isn't obvious here, an explicit CoC has a number of advantages over a document like this one when it comes to actually resolving conflict, instead of trying to prevent it. It makes value judgements, but only because at some point in the conflict resolution process, leadership will be forced to make value judgements.

Making those value judgements explicit, and public, is a commitment from project leadership to not favor the in-group over the outgroup either explicitly or implicitly, when resolving conflict. It allows people to cite a prior commitment from the leadership to act in a certain manner. You still must trust the leadership to resolve conflict in the manner they stated they would, but you can verify that their resolution was in-line with the process and commitments they provided.

This doesn't mean that a CoC prevents leadership from attempting to mediate conflict when it comes up, and come to mutually agreeable solutions in cases when that is possible. But it does mean that in those rare cases when it is no longer possible to assume good intent that everyone is aware of the values that leadership and the decision-makers opted in to, and can hold them accountable to making decision in line with those values.

With this, Stallman hasn't made a commitment. He's written some nice platitudes, but when it comes down to it, how am I supposed to know if (again, hypothetically speaking) I'd had bad interactions with GNU or its members previously, Stallman would really value my experience strongly enough to take action instead of just letting me suffer to maintain the status quo? How can I try to hold him accountable when I don't know his values, and it would be completely possible for him to write off my complaint as simply not assuming good intent on the part of other contributors?

I can't. That's the problem.

[1]: Note that in this little hypothetical, you're my "boss", so the suggesting to put someone between me and the people I lead can be reasonably interpreted as a demotion or attack on my authority.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much damage have Linus's snippy emails really caused, in light of how they have benefited us? I and many other people like reading them because they are fun, so you have to take that in to account. Different people like different things, and that principle extends to writing styles and personalities. Indeed, if you really want to have diversity you should have some emails that I like to read in addition to having…

>How much damage have Linus's snippy emails really caused Don't downplay how he acted by using words like "snippy." There are contributors who have either left the project or actively avoid directly talking with him. There is a reason why Linus admitted he had a problem. It wasn't productive or useful. https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly/post... >But more importantly, I'd actually put some blame o…

systemd is not a good advertisement for prioritizing social pacification over software quality.

Re: Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

#120

Being politically correct vs getting the job done, I'll always choose getting the job done. There is plenty or role playing projects where your feeling matter more than your skills. In last couple of jobs I am always asking about company policy, if they start piling about diversity and getting everybody heard and how everybody's feelings are most important thing, I don't want to work there. Earn your place with your…

> Being politically correct vs getting the job done, I'll always choose getting the job done. I am absolutely baffled at the idea that there is ever a situation where getting the job done requires a choice to be politically incorrect as implied here. Do you have an example of the phenomenon you're discussing?

For example not calling a problem in the code “a problem” but “possible place for improvement” as to do so might lead people to think their code is “problematic”... then i resigned...
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