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What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

blog.codinghorror.com

101–110 of 216 posts

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#101

I've used stackoverflow for years and have never heard it put like that. "Stack Overflow ultimately has much more in common with Wikipedia than a discussion forum. By this I mean questions and answers on Stack Overflow are not primarily judged by their usefulness to a specific individual, but by how many other programmers that question or answer can potentially help over time ." Personally I would have been much more…

> Personally I would have been much more understanding of the process of using stackoverflow if I knew this, and so would many of the people who get stung expecting an answer to their question.

What do you mean here? Why does a separate answer to unknown future readers take precedence over the answer the poster (and other future readers) was looking for?

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#102
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you are giving Stack Overflow's leaders enough credit. There were many Q&A sites before it, but Stack Overflow was much better for the lurkers, and all of that content is licensed under Creative Commons, similar to Wikipedia. Also, Jeff is not trying to take credit for the users' hard work, I'm a contributor and I don't feel that way, especially after reading this part: > I am honored and humbled by the…

> and all of that content is licensed under Creative Commons it's CA-BY-SA IIRC. In other words if you copied and pasted a snippet from SO you now need to open source your project (the SA part of CC-BY-SA). I'm surprised someone hasn't written some ransomware that scans SO for snippets and compares them to github and starts sending out the "pay up" notices.

If that makes a substantial part of the project. Of course, the meaning of that is likely to be decided by courts...but if your project literally consists of 50% recycled SO content, it might suffer from worse issues. #understatement

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#103
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's a big turn-off. I think the game-ification of SO (in the form of badges, scores, privileges and rules) attracts personalities who crave that shit and don't see any problem with being harsh and dismissive to others that don't follow the rules (as they see them). Regardless of how much SO may say that it's about "the community" rather than the individual, it BECOMES personal when an individual has a genuine…

that don't follow the rules (as they see them The rules are exactly what is gamified via the points and badges system. You can’t fault anyone for responding to the incentives they are given, when explicitly set out by the site owners via that system. The personalities attracted by it are the ones that made it successful, by design. Otherwise it would be just another Yahoo Answers. The “rules” only changed after those…

    > You can’t fault anyone for responding to the incentives they are given, when explicitly set out by the site owners...
Oh yes you can!

I remember stackoverflow in the early days and it was useful from the beginning. Sure, there were always some persnickety zealots who acted as self-appointed police "protecting" the community from subjectivity and duplicate questions with all the sensitivity of a clock-maker wearing oven mitts.

In the last 5-6 years, however, it has been overrun with such strange behavior. One can't simply ask a question unless it meets an unreasonably high standard-- and even then perfectly good questions get slapped down for no reason at all.

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#104
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you are giving Stack Overflow's leaders enough credit. There were many Q&A sites before it, but Stack Overflow was much better for the lurkers, and all of that content is licensed under Creative Commons, similar to Wikipedia. Also, Jeff is not trying to take credit for the users' hard work, I'm a contributor and I don't feel that way, especially after reading this part: > I am honored and humbled by the…

Stack overflow was instrumental in my early programming career, because without it I would have had to read entire volumes of information to solve simple problems in some cases. The issue that I have is the attempt to pretend to have guided the course more than was the case. SO was a Q&A with a tremendous UX, and the users used it to help each other. That’s it. Even this nonsense of “gamification” is just ego-driven…

"[All SO had was] tremendous UX" - that's no small feat. Remember expertsexchange et al? And the data-cloaking tricks? "Pay up or no answer for you"? shudder Those were dark times...dark times.

Perhaps SO is not the knight in shining armor, as it may have seemed then, but it certainly helped change the landscape for the better.

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#105
The thing I think will be most interesting to understand in retrospect is how much of a filter the SO community has been in terms of blocking and shaping the generation of programmers who've started out since it has become the go-to site for help.

University degrees act as a filter to a certain extent. And many fields have courses at the beginning that are designed to weed out people who are not going to be successful in later coursework. And the result of that filter is a certain homogeneity people that make it through that filter and become successful.

The internet has done a really fascinating end-run around the university filter, and has been described as an an equalizing mechanism in society. But filters and enforced similarities are things that spontaneously emerge from societies--even anonymous ones on the internet.

While it's true that SO doesn't claim to be a learning resource for beginners, most google searches lead there, and that's a real part of its function no matter how much the managers claim it shouldn't be. And the response that beginners get is clear: conform or get out.

I think the social tide in the work place is moving against that kind of attitude. Developers are no longer quite the magical group of secretive wizards that they used to be, and the sort of Linus-style kind of treatment of people who aren't completely on it isn't really tenable in business situations anymore. A lot of the jobs that I want to apply for are more and more frequently focusing on being a good colleague, not just a good programmer.

I think SO has two obvious directions it can take. The first is to allow the core contributors to continue to lay down the law and remain, shall we say, aloof and concerned primarily with maintaining their fiefdoms while gradually shrinking in relevance and contributions. And the other is to, well, not basically.

I don't think either one of those is actively bad. There is value in maintaining the strict order that SO does. But that value comes at a cost. There's a high barrier to entry right now for being an influencer on SO, and that's good if you want to remain the authoritative place to find good answers. It's bad if you want a next generation of leaders to come in and replace the ones who are currently at the top when they wander off to do other things.

I remember reading a story about what happens when you listen too much to how people use your product, and the example case was Excel. It was supposed to be a spreadsheet. But Microsoft--ever the leader at market research--figured out very quickly that people were using it for almost everything but spreading sheets! And Microsoft--also the leader at getting product decisions massively wrong--decided to make Excel do pretty much everything instead of developing a separate product to fill those use cases. And now we're at a point where Excel does basically everything, and getting people to not fucking use it for everything is almost impossible.

So yeah. They need to keep a tight focus.

An interesting counterexample is EvE online. For almost 2 decades now, the games has had a reputation for being hardcore, elite pvp. The weak need not apply. Piracy, scamming . . . being the bad guy in every way is not only allowed, it's encouraged. That community filters itself very effectively. Whining about what's fair or not just makes you more of a target. People farm new player tears as much as they farm space dollars. And it shows. CCP Games has had a tremendously difficult time staying relevant in the MMORPG world and in the last couple of years has been forced to make sudden changes that really disrupted the existing community in an effort to appeal to new players. Nobody really wins there.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next decade. It's a legitimately difficult management challenge, and I'm not convinced that it's possible to avoid what seems to be the inevitable rise and decline cycle of all social networks.

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#106

One challenge not discussed here is when an accepted and highly voted answer _used_ to be a good answer, but no longer is in later versions of whatever software/platform/library is discussed. This is also something that gets worse over time, like the uniqueness problem. I think it's worse than the uniqueness problem, multiple duplicate _good_ questions/answers don't actually harm, misguide, or delay anyone looking fo…

I started learning Python this year. The number of Python 2 specific answers on Stack Overflow has been a not-insignificant barrier to that.

Almost all answers recommend using os rather than pathlib, many answers recommend using cmp functions rather than keys for sorting, etc. Not to mention all the print statements.

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#107
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that don't follow the rules (as they see them The rules are exactly what is gamified via the points and badges system. You can’t fault anyone for responding to the incentives they are given, when explicitly set out by the site owners via that system. The personalities attracted by it are the ones that made it successful, by design. Otherwise it would be just another Yahoo Answers. The “rules” only changed after those…

> You can’t fault anyone for responding to the incentives they are given, when explicitly set out by the site owners... Oh yes you can! I remember stackoverflow in the early days and it was useful from the beginning. Sure, there were always some persnickety zealots who acted as self-appointed police "protecting" the community from subjectivity and duplicate questions with all the sensitivity of a clock-maker wearing…

SO literally gives you a reward in the form of a badge for your profile the more you flag questions! They give you a badge for downvoting, a badge for editing... The root cause for all these behaviours lies with whoever dreamt up those badges and chose what to award them for.

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#108
post #75

Wow, time flies (for both the age of SO and how long since Jeff was involved). So I'm onboard with the concept of SO as Wikipedia. Fine. Weirdly I see no mention of some of the bigger problems (as I see them). And what's weird about these problems is they were completely foreseeable by anyone who paid the tiniest bit of attention to Wikipedia. 1. TMS (Toxic Moderator Syndrome). You have askers, answerers and moderato…

Minor note, but one of your concerns, automatic CW transition was removed several years ago: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/227290/stop-using-c...

Also,

> Jeff bailing 2 years in

The site was launched in late 2008 (hence the blog's congratulations on 10 years), and presumably there was a fair bit of work previous to that. So somewhere between 4 and 5 years.

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#109

I've used stackoverflow for years and have never heard it put like that. "Stack Overflow ultimately has much more in common with Wikipedia than a discussion forum. By this I mean questions and answers on Stack Overflow are not primarily judged by their usefulness to a specific individual, but by how many other programmers that question or answer can potentially help over time ." Personally I would have been much more…

I think this is a good observation, but I still don't think it completely explains the hostility on SO, which quite often seems like an even more hostile and juvenile version of certain Linux distro mailing lists. It honestly seems like most of SO is people screaming "RTFM n00b!" and downvoting questions into oblivion.

Agreed. I've seen this position before, with the attendant "SO isn't hostile, the users are just wrong", and I don't buy it any more now than I have in the past.

It's way too common to see exchanges like "The manual for X is factually wrong, so how do I really do it?" "RFTM!" or "I want to Y, which is not covered by similar question X for reasons A, B, C." "Closed, dupe of X!" Or for that matter, "How can I X?" and "I'd like to X, help please?" each closed unanswered as a dupe of the other.

Building for the future, not solving for the moment, is a perfectly reasonable sentiment. I can understand using that argument to close "what's the bug in my code?" questions, or for that matter "how do I X under these self-imposed restrictions?" But in practice, it's frequently wielded like it would be on a nasty mailing list or Usenet group, to tell people that they shouldn't do what they're doing and therefore don't deserve an answer.

Re: What does Stack Overflow want to be when it grows up?

#110
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you still support IE11 very little has changed in the last 2-3 years. JQuery is still king. Companies that support large enterprise or government absolutely require IE11 support, since these places are required to use it due to exclusive e.g. Java Applets/Flash/ActiveX, etc. Microsoft's decision to drop those technologies from Edge was kind a mixed bag. From a security perspective it was the right decision. But it…

I find that IE11 is surprisingly polyfillable. The biggest issue has been flexbox, since CSS can’t exactly be polyfilled.

This is a bit offtopic, but I find that autoprefixer gets us about 95% of the way there when it comes to flexbox, in case you aren't already using it.
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